Ari H http://jta.org/user/profile/68097 en-us rcsillag@jta.org Copyright 2009 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Good to see he's looking so well - healthy and coherent as Bibi said. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 JAMES RAIDER - Er...Not really. Contrary to what your blogger says, Russia wasn't working that closely with the US when they were building missile sites next to Russia, and the plans were dropped partly as a way of getting Russia more onside on the Iran issue. In other words, by any analysis it's THE OPPOSITE of what you said. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- 1) Firstly, Spain currently has a very very small proportion of muslims on account of it's fascist past. As you rightly pointed out, the vast majority of their immigrants are either Western or Eastern Europeans, and only Morroccans come amongst the main groups. These are also leaving in droves, as they were temporary economic migrants. 2) Even if it is 1.4, then it wouldn't be a muslim majority by the end of a century, never mind being 'entirely' muslim as you said. I can't even see how that could happen at all - a country ENTIRELY changing religion within 100 years in the modern world. What about the E.Europeans? Their birthrates are very high? Birthrates also fall - they're socio-economically linked. Fortunately that's very very far from what's possible, never mind probable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL - You regularly post on threads about any Pal or Arab Israel peaceful protests, but then you slam them, and have made many comments suggesting that the police should have attacked them! Hypocritical - no? Now you're not as delusional as a Tamar or a Blackie, so you surely know better. Anyway - I've made clear many times that of the many claims in the report, the massive amount of footage collated by the IDF should be able to dispute one or two - perhaps through soldier testimonies at the time, combined with some of the massive amount of vehicle tracking data; missile targetting data; all of the countless hours of footage and monitoring, at least some of the points could be contested. But no... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 That's pretty direct. I always have to point out that it's not just Obama - it's a coalition of the world's main powers who are pressuring Iran, but nonetheless, good progress. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The headline we're yet to see:- "IDF Attacks Reports' Conclusions with counterargument/evidence" 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl Mavrikos 09/30/09 04:03 PM And to you, Ari H, for demonstrating your hypocrisy once again by failing to do the right thing even as you accuse others of - horrors! - being “nasty”. You seem more preoccupied with maintaining a sort of sham civility on this board than in denouncing the expressed evil of many of the posters. Let me explain simply why it does me no good to provide you with calm and reasoned argument - because any girl knows you don’t put on your party shoes when you know you’re going to slog through a rat-infested swamp. I save my best for those who pay attention. My worst, today, to the insects who are always on the wrong side of good. Yes, sometimes my anger burns so fiercely against these.....that rational argument becomes difficult if not impossible. -------------------------------------------------------------------- What are you talking about Cheryl??????? My post was about the article, because I usually choose to ignore the scum who post on the boards. I usually scan the names, and occasionally read the posts of a handful of people if one of them catches my eye. My post had nothing to do with anybody elses, and I don't think I'd read anybody elses' posts!!! I have no idea why you've randomly picked on me. If YOU want to encourage the rabble, feel free...I have better things to do with my time...well...some of it anyway. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PAUL - 'Taqqiya' allowed muslims to hide their religion in cases where that would lead to persecution, rather like Jews did in many cases. Typical of the overt racism on the boards...I'll take a leaf from Will and point out whata Nazi that makes you...as bad as that "shameless lot of savages"... Do you want them to be gassed Paul? You massive, ungodly hypocrite... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL - Also, your occasional forays into overt racism and calls for Holocausts are immoral, pathetic, and thoroughly unJewish. And disappointing. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL - Certainly there's no doubt that allowing Israel to use their airspace would be a major boost for the forces allied against the Saudi Royals, and I fully agree that it would be seen by SOME as treachery. However, the Arabs' massive distrust of Iran, and Iranian influence is a bit of a counterbalance to this. The House of Saud is also pretty secure on a grand scale. The reports on Saudi/Jordan meetings being less than negative about invasion have been around for quite a while, and from many different sources, so a year or two down the line, I wouldn't be surprised if both were cooperative, but for obvious reasons it's in Israel's interests for them to be seen to do so at least reluctantly. I would refer you to another story on JTA:- http://jta.org/news/article/2009/10/01/1008254/arab-research-center-head-favors-iran-strike 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This claim is full of holes. Of all the spins put on why the Goldstone report was bad, this is one of the weaker ones, as Goldstone himself has pointed out. Clearly no action will be taken on the back of the report though - it never is, and Europe and the US rightly recognize that the pressure and disapproval is enough. What Bibi hasn't tried yet, is actually disproving the countless documented allegations using the vast body of information available to him and the IDF...clearly THAT isn't going to happen either. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Getting closer to basic legal and practical equality for Israeli Arabs (which is far from the case now) is only beneficial for Israel in weakening the extremist in other Arab countries, while injustices just boost them. In this case peaceful protests are less than objectionable. WILL - I'm always disappointed with your sporadic, unabashed, overt racism, which comes up every few days. Quite sad really. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl Mavrikos 10/01/09 09:56 AM Based on population demographics, Spain should be entirely Islamic by early the next century. ------------------------------------------------- No chance! I work with demographics a lot, and I can tell you that NONE of the Western European countries will be anywhere NEAR being 'entirely' Islamic, nor will Spain have an Arabic majority. Anyway - as you completely rightly pointed out, Spain's overtly racist past has always made it one of the most anti-semitic of the European countries. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 LEON:- The figures for muslims in Spain would be considerably worse of course, given that it's a country which has an extremely high level of Islamophobia too. They also have a high level of racism generally. Black soccer players get booedpersistently, there are many racially or religiously motivated slurs in the national media etc. Spain started from a poor position, and then during Cast Lead all of these polls from all around the world went downhill, so it's not really a surprise, but it is still a concern. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It sounds like it's probably the same stupid kid. It's not an attack on Israel, however, but an anti-semitic attack. I'm sure the 17yo kid being held is pushed on by gross stupidity and racial and religious bigotry, rather than his burning political issues. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 NIKOS:- It's not actually true that "the US has ZERO commercial dealings with Iran"...far from it. US companies still have close links to Iran, and if, as you suggest, this sanctions bill will not add anything, then it won't get through the house! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Excellent. It's been absolutely crystal clear that Iran are out to cut a deal - they know they would be too big a target not to be invaded before they develop a weapon. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sounds dubious. I'll stick with the likes of Shin Bet, the US, etc. in believing they're a good 5 years away from a usable weapon. However, the two aren't necessarily contradictory - they could have started developing a weapon at that time, but the majority of estimates could still be right. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Firstly, the Sunday Express is a tabloid rag, but it's clear that they have given consent to Israeli flyovers in the event of a war. Denying it is just what any country would do in such a politically sensitive situation - especially as an invasion looks a while off. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As the main Iranian proxy, and the ongoing Iranian threat to Israel, Syria is the perfect, essential target. I think they're there to be won over. Not that it would be quick or easy, but that progress on the Palestinian issues, and on the Golan Heights would make moves towards normalization with Syria and Lebanon, helping to isolate the likes of Hezbollah, and increasing our security massively. Unlike Will - I don't agree that racial and religious bigotry mean that nobody should try to weaken Iran by weakening it's links with it's main proxy. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As usual, surveys are as valuable as the organization carrying them out are competent and independent. In this case you can just look at the ambiguity of the questions - do they mean if the US/Israel invaded, would I support the troops, or do I want them to invade? Does it mean invade in two years, or now? An attack on nuclear facilities, or putting ground troops in danger? Regardless, while the figures are essentially worthless, what's important is that the increase in public support for action is indisputable. The issue is extremely high up the agenda around the world, and is being dealt with with unparalleled international pressure. It's clear Iran knows the year it gets close to a weapon, their facilities would be destroyed, so they're holding out for the best deal theycan get. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL - I made clear that the regularity of such 'accidents' massively underwhelms your suggestion that it could indeed be accidents. I also pointed out that the jeep would have had to of been travelling at a decent speed to actually kill the kid. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - I take offense at your blatantly incorrect implication. You'll find that I USED to read TD's posts, as I did all posts, and had countless bitter arguments with him. However, you'll find I also STOPPED reading them, and told others to do the same - to ignore the idiots out to provoke, so therefore I DIDN'T read that post you apparently somehow know I read, and even if I had probably wouldn't have replied. You'll find I replied to Tamar/Mussa's posts about 2% of the time as well. Regardless, I accept your position that you didn't mean to gloat over a death, but got carried away. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 There's rare unity on this issue (as well as that of the Iran threat). It's one of the things which makes progress so much more likely than in recent years. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Of course they won't - the US will always use it's veto to protect Israel from any scrutiny at all, but their disapproval, and that of the Western world increases rapidly - it intensifies more and more after each ill-judged, poorly executed war. I agree with the calls various military and political leaders have made for the institution of more moral working procedures within the IDF; actual investigations, etc. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - I'm always disappointed in your '9/11 dancer' style celebration of death. It's entirely irreligious, unJewish and undoubtedly despicable and hypocritical. The positions which are tenable here range from it being an accident with some individual responsibility, to it being murder. Anything outside those parameters is pretty detestable. When celebrating deaths, anybody who say somebody 'probably' deserved it should ring alarm bells. However, even if this kid was throwing stones, it seems unlikely that he could have been hit at a high enough speed by accident, which would make it an unlawful killing. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - that's not even the Pals' starting point for negotiations, never mind their endgame, so I think you're a few decades out. Anyway - political engagement continues apace. It can't be long until the engagement is stepped up a notch, as these meetings have been going on for a few months. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MELVYN:- 1) You're still suggesting I should have explained the phrase 'beyond the pale', whereas I think you knew exactly what it meant, or could have got the meaning from the rest of my post, which yours agreed with, so I think this is petty, childish internet gainsaying. If you genuinely didn't know the meaning of a common English phrase, then you may wish to keep Google open to check any common idioms you're unfamiliar with, rather than simply misinterpreting them in a way beneficial to you. 2) I assume you agree that you'd misinterpreted the story? 3) I didn't read the entire report, but I suggested you hadn't read it at all, as you claimed the allegations were that the sides had waged war, and that it was this which was being called unacceptable. I pointed out that it was incorrect. Other than still claiming I should explain any common turns of phrase used, you've not really disputed my points. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's amazing how often such 'accidents' occur. It appears that military vehicles and weapons are more accident prone in areas like Jenin than pretty much anywhere else! The regularity of such incidents certainly supports the accounts that say it was done on purpose. It certainly must have been travelling at a decent speed to kill the stone-throwing kid. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Looking at the list of prisoners to be released, it strikes me that all of them seem to be due to be released within the next few months anyway. Essentially, it's a concession which is many times smaller than it appears, which is a wise move. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think this decision is partly driven by a political need to show progress on Shalit, and partly by a recognition that you can't keep 10,000 Pals imprisoned - especially when so many are minors or detained without charge. We definitely SHOULDN'T accede to the Hamas calls for the release of hardcore terrorist in exchange for the return of Shalit - those are just designed to be a political victory for Hamas. However, if the prisoners released are some of the many more dubious cases, then I'll trust Bibi on this one, as the vast majority will have to be released at some point anyway, and it can be a major recruiter for extremists. I'd just rather we held out on the more despicable cases. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BOAZ BLAUSTEIN:- There's not really any doubt that Iran is openly publicizing it's gradual move towards acquiring a nuclear weapon. As I heard an expert point out yesterday, they tend to make a big show of it, and then stop their activities for a while, rather as N. Korea are believed to have done. A nuclear armed Iran is a threat NOT because they would actually use it, but because they would become undesirably influential militarily and diplomatically. Think of how difficult and massively dangerous any decision to attack is now, and then multiply that by infinity! Regardless, it's clear that Iran knows the year it gets close to a weapon it's enrichment sites would be obliterated. It's clear that they're out to get the best possible deal in return for not being allowed to use nuclear power, as well as enjoying the nationalistic fervour that comes when a country is told by others that it can't do the same things they do. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The US is still only showing extremely muted, behind-closed-doors-style disapproval of actions during Cast Lead, so as ever, there clearly won't be any proper analysis or accountability. Still, it's perfectly reasonable for countries to call for the findings of an investigation to be debated. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MELVYN:- "Ari H.:Fortunately,"beyond the pale” is not a recognized legal standard for determining whether one has probable cause to form the basis of a criminal suit.The world can operate in a very irresponsible manner by allowing such suits" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) I clearly didn't claim that 'beyond the pale' was a legal term, but you know exactly what it means, so I'm not sure what your point is. 2) The judge DIDN'T accept this lawsuit, which I said was the right decision, and you appear to agree. 3) You're also suggesting that the report is about Israel and Hamas waging war, so therefore their actions constitutes warcrimes. That's clearly not the case. If you go and actually read the report, you'll see it's about HOW war is waged. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EVAN ZUESSE:- Incidentally, you claim that the suggestions of warcrimes are a result of having waged war. They're not. They're specifically about whether civilians were purposefully targetted in that war. You appear to be unaware, but there are clear, internationally agreed definitions of lawful practice in war... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EVAN ZUESSE:- "Ari H, Ehud Barak is not “beyond the pale.” Read my post again Evan, as that's what I've said:- "Political leaders simply don’t get arrest warrants brought against them in other countries unless they’re way beyond the pale. " i.e. not Barak - I also stated clearly that "it’s the logical decision". 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Pretty indisputable. For too long the only consequences for Hamas and Israel have been the actions of the other. Meanwhile there are major multinational coalitions putting massive political pressure on other countries, and the ME has got nowhere. Clearly there'll be no actual actions coming from this report - not while the US is going no further than minor disapproval, but still vetoing any actions. Regardless, it'd be beneficial for all involved if the brutal back and forth of punishment of civilians was met with stronger behavior. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Political leaders simply don't get arrest warrants brought against them in other countries unless they're way beyond the pale. Alhtough that seems immoral, it's the only way the world can operate. People are more than entitled to push for a warrant to be issued - it's usually about pressure rather than actually thinking it will come to pass. However, it's the logical decision. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Marty Arnold:- What a truly despicable attack on Larry King, The Bible, etc. Only a truly deluded, embittered individual, detached from reality, could have come up with such a remarkable rant. All of those things are not anti-semitic. Larry King is a respected journalist, which means he gets to interview world leaders. What you are saying is that by interviewing anybody we disagree with, he does us a disservice for his own ego. Well politicians endlessly talk about the threat from such individuals, but to boost their own popularity...do you call them anti-semites? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 People need to be logical here and calm down a bit. Presumably it is a group of Israeli mercenaries who are tracking him, given that the Israeli diplomats didn't deny them being there, and it sounds like there's evidence that some kind of radiation or sound-based device was used. So where's the anti-semitism in his comments? I find it disgusting whenpeople cheapen anti-semitism, or, for example, the Holocaust just because you don't like it when mercenaries are from our country! Regardless, his public opposition to Israeli policies and collaboration with Chavez certainly ALIGNS him with anti-semites, but the comments he has made here certainly do not. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Apologies - the above is in response to the attack on Saperstein above - to to Saperstein himself. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is a bit misguided. Jews generally, and particulrly in the US are broadly supportive of gay rights - even many who are broadly homophobic would not support legislation saying that they should face discrimination in their daily lives. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Pretty indisputable - I notice that any suggestion of progress towards peace really riles some of the more deluded posters, who never seem to provide an alternative to resolving the conflict... - Continuing with the unpleasant status quo perhaps? - A single-state with an Arab majority??? No - clearly negotiations are inevitable, and essential for Israel before demographics work against us, but how dare a Jew support something so good for Israel??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Of course the EU wouldn't dare endorse imposing any kind of international law on Israel and Hamas - that would clearly be ridiculous. They may, however, be less than enthusiastic when they join the US in ensuring that no fuller investigation is followed. Each time this happens it costs the country quite a bit of political capital, and it can't go on forever. The endless sweeping under the carpet of problems only serves as the most powerful recruitment tool for our enemies, and those of the US and Europe. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Another call for preferential treatment. Again, I would like to see a letter asking that the IDF be given time to compile their evidence on the war (they've already had an age, and have another 6 months, as do Hamas) in order to actually disprove some of the claims... That seems to be a low priority though... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmmm...so the Rabbi's position is that it's anti-semitic because Chavez doesn't care about the massacres in Africa? There is so much to object to from Chavez, but the kind of spurious logic used by the Rabbi here is dangerous, in that it cheapens the tag of anti-semitism. He could have pointed out Chavez' lack of condemnation of murders by the likes of the otehr S.American leaders, or Iran. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's interesting that the article calls it an Israeli team, whereas them not being allowed to participate is because they're from a West Bank settlement which the rest of the developed world doesn't accept to be Israeli. It's a tricky situation, and perhaps a team from an institution within the accepted boundaries of Israel could be included in their place as a compromise measure. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EVAN - Certainly the 4% figure has been presented by people on these boards as being a response to various different questions, but I accept that there may not have been an intention to mislead. Nonetheless, the studies all show that Israelis of course have a considerably higher proportion of people who believe Obama is on their side than the Pals, but we're talking about the 12% -ish. Nobody ever thinks their main supporter is unfairly on their side, which is what the question implied. You say "The Jews of Israel voted overwhelmingly for Netanyahu and other parties sceptical of Palestinian peace intentions, and against Labor and Kadima":- I disagree with that, in that it's a pretty marginal coalition which has been formed. I accept that they're in power, but it was by no means overwhelming - in fact for all involved it was by the skin of their teeth. A couple of MKs joining a different coalition would have tipped the balance. Nonetheless, as a democracy, Bibi still has to appeal to his electorate, and so I don't believe he would do anything far from what the people want. IF anything, the coalition structure gives disproportionate power to the likes of Lieberman, who would otherwise be marginal. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think we'd all agree that it's morally and religiously disgusting to try to force your children into choosing a partner of a particular faith - religiously as it raises the question of whether they are truly loyal to the religion, or have done it for the money. This decision is a dangerous precedent - to flip the situation, if somebody said they would only leave money to their kids if they married Aryans, or people of a particular political party, it would be equally disturbing. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 David R. Evans 09/24/09 05:03 PM Once again there are those here who “slay the messenger”, when it is his message (which is true) that should be listened to. President Ahmadinejad’s words at the conference cannot be denied. ------------------------------------------------------------------- That says it all about David R Evans' positions...no comment required... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL - Nope - wrong again:- 1) You implied that the politics of lobbies plays no role is the US backing Israel. 2) I pointed out that the politics of lobbies plays a role. You, for example, have strived to make every issue about Obama, and called him an anti-semite and an Enemy of Israel due to his having failed to provide quite such extreme preferential treatment as there was before. Your suggestion means that your efforts, and those of the lobbies has no effect whatsoever!!! 3) You said "Cheryl - part of the US - Israel links are as we "hare virtually identical ideological beliefs and values"...I said that "part of the US - Israel links are ideological"... so we agree on that!!! Your position would mean that the lobbies and critics have NO influence, in which case you have been wasting your time. I was saying that they have SOME influence. How anybody can dispute the fact that any word critical of Israel has always been a dangerous position for any President is amazing to me! I'm afraid you're beyond logic on this one. , but they wouldn’t have lasted were it not politically essential for Presidents to keep up some preferential treatment for Israel. That’s undeniable. They get massive and vicious personal attacks if they don’t, and can easily be portrayed as anti-semitic by the lobbying groups - which again nobody seriously disputes. Your suggestion would mean that when the US has vetoed every single piece of criticizm of Israel over the decades, that each were considered in their own right, and that it was coincidental that the US happened to oppose them every time, rather than partly political expediency. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Clear PR without content. The Goldstone report fully condemned BOTH Israel and Hamas, accusing them of various warcrimes. So was it siding with Israel or terrorists? Even 5 year olds are above such illogical conclusions of 'good' vs 'bad'. Saddam was one of Al Qaeda's biggest enemies...by the logic Bibi dishonestly used here, criticizing either was clearly supporting the other! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EVAN AND CHERYL:- Not only were your arguments based on a falsehood, but you were also arguing against a point I didn't make. My post in it's entirety was:- "Most importantly of all, the vast majority of Jews across the developed world support a move towards a negotiated peace too… " Not 'Obama's plan', or anything like that. This time tell me HONESTLY - which of my two points do you disagree with:- 1) That the vast majority of Jews around the world want peace in the ME 2) That the vast majority of Jews around the world recognize that negotiation is necessary as an essential means of resolving the issues???? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EVAN AND CHERYL:- Today alone, you two are just 2 of 5 people I've seen misrepresent that 4% figure - all differently!!! Cheryl says 4% support Obama Evan says 4% support Obama's means of achieving peace In fact the question was "DO YOU THINK OBAMA FAVORS YOUR SIDE!". The figures in response to this question are usually 12% for Israeli Jews, and 4% for Palestinians. I suggest you both read more carefully, or at least take care not to mislead people! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - I think that's a little bit of self-serving, self interest in your interpretation. Obama slipped out before Gadhaffi's speech, and did everything to avoid engaging with him. Gadhaffi's attempt to embarrass him didn't warrant a response, as that would only benefit Gadhaffi's constituency across Africa, so a direct slanging match would have been catastrophic, which is why no leaders enter into such childishness. Most crucially, you would have slaughtered him for getting involved in such games, and slaughter him for not doing so... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 John - certainly there can be no doubt that the entire world is more than aware of the threat of a nuclear-armed Iran, and even other Arab countries are very much against it. However, they also know your concerns, and also know the potential dangers of invasion. There is certainly time for trying another route against a weakened Iran - the head of Shin Bet says it would be 2013/2014 before they would have a weapon at the very earliest, and that was before the instability following the elections. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I always point out that this issue has shot up the agenda of EVERY MAJOR COUNTRY in the world, and while we tend to praise the US for pushing people so hard on this, there are many other players, and every country is essentially onside. There are few such issues which garner such huge international support. Negotiations are slow, but the currently weakened and unstable Iran is in a position where it would be useful to start the wheels turning. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 JFK is one of those cases where one of the conspiracies is most likely to be true, but even so, none of us know, or can even make a particular educated guess on whether the official verdict was correct. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - part of the US - Israel links are ideological, but they wouldn't have lasted were it not politically essential for Presidents to keep up some preferential treatment for Israel. That's undeniable. They get massive and vicious personal attacks if they don't, and can easily be portrayed as anti-semitic by the lobbying groups - which again nobody seriously disputes. Your suggestion would mean that when the US has vetoed every single piece of criticizm of Israel over the decades, that each were considered in their own right, and that it was coincidental that the US happened to oppose them every time, rather than partly political expediency. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I don't think we can be too US-centric on this. The entire developed world has seen the Iran issue shoot up their agenda, and the level of agreement is extremely high for such an issue. Obama is really pushing on this one, but there are also many other members. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 And it happened all over the place in years gone by... I often mention how surveys of opinions of 'the other side' often shows that those who were older had a better understanding of the other side, because they saw them as human. Integration amongst kids is one of the most important elements in future peace and prosperity. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yup - this story lacks all basic detail, which makes me suspicious. If the protest were particularly violent, or even if stones were thrown, the article should say so. If the claims of the land being privately owned are seriously disputed, or if there is any evidence of it being public land, then this should be included. On the extremely limited evidence in the article, it sounds highly dodgy at the moment. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BEN PACKER:- "4% of the Israeli public think Mr. Obama is pro-Israel. Rep Cantor defines himself as pro-Israel and is in line (on this issue) with 96% of Israelis." ----------------------------------------------- Do you have a source for that? The lowest of the major studies I've seen (most of which JTA has covered) was about 9% with an average of 12% of Israelis. I also don't understand why you consider this to be important, as for Pals it was about 4% - perhaps that's what you're thinking of. Regardless, people have been objecting to his use of Jews for party political purposes. There's also the fact that the Dems have many more Jews, both serving, and voting for them. Presumably you accept that they also are 'proud Jews' 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Regardless, while the US has, along with the rest of the Western world, considered issues such as the settlements to be illegal, political reasons meant that previous Presidents refrained from seeing ME peace, or directness with Israel to be a priority. It guarantees vicious and often deceitful organized personal attacks, and so was never worth it. However, I think all agree that ME peace is increasingly crucial due to the demographic problem, which will increasingly weaken the Israeli Jewish position. This means no longer protecting Israel diplomatically at any cost, which only lead to irrational decisions, and no progress whatsoever. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DANNY - "Also President Obama and CIA director told Israel that if they don’t stop settlements then they will not prevent Iran from developing nukes, and if Israel attacks Iran in self defense they will do it without U.S. support. " Do you have any source for this, as it sounds like a clear lie. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I actually lived in Ireland, and know other Jews who still live there. I found it unerringly friendly, and had despite standing out more, encountered less anti-semitism that I did living in the US! The racism exhibited on these boards against EVERY country in the world is an example of the gross stupidity and hypocrisy of many of the posters. Famously many are seriously detached from logic, and are outsiders from society for a reason. Anyway - I'll reiterate that while ironic racism within comedy is extremely common from all major stars, the Holocaust is going too far. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Most importantly of all, the vast majority of Jews across the developed world support a move towards a negotiated peace too... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 They have been engaging in a particularly destructive go-slow, leaving a great many positions unfilled, even after several months. The Dems scarcely used that level of awkwardness under Bush, reserving it only for his most outlandish appointments. Time for Obama to get tougher, and to be less cooperative. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stanley E. Rose - your point (based on not having heard the comments) assumes that a comedian who operates in the style of those I've mentioned above, suddenly stopped being ironical about bigotry, and went on a genuinely anti-semitic rant, which is blatantly incorrect. Irony isn't something that some people are strong on. Regardless, as I've also said above, while I don't mind the ironically racial or religious stereotyping of the popular comedians, the Holocaust is going rather too far. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmmm...mixed feelings here. A stupid joke, and one which he should have had to apologize for. However, it's fuelled equally despicable and ignorant racism on the boards. To give an example, countless comedians such as Chris Rock or Sarah Silverman use shock, and cod-bigotry for comedy. There's not the slightest sliver of a doubt that this was not anti-semitism, in that it was clearly sarcasm, but the insensitive inclusion of the Holocaust in stereotype comedy isn't acceptable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stuart - apologies. On re-reading your post, I recognize that it does not appear to be the point you are making. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Y'know what would be something different? The US aiding the IDF in using the vast amount of data and analytical ability to actually disprove or argue against any of the allegations... That would be nice... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It seems that given how Jews vote, according to democracy the Republican party is no friend of the Jews!!! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This hardly even qualifies as news. Haven't the US used their vetoes to protect Israel from EVERY criticizm since inception? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stuart - are you suggesting that it's a bad thing, or surprising that so few Palestinians believe Obama is 'on their side'??? If I remember rightly, the same survey said thatthe figure for Jewish Israelis was about 12%! And that despite the US being by far the only country in the world which supports us so fully! I think that omission was rather misleading. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - the claim that this is 'empty wasteland' is easily disproven by the article itself! I suggest you read it again. Regardless, claims that land is 'empty' is a common and despicable piece of illogical revisionism. I couldn't set up home on a piece of land in the US and claim it a settlement. These people are indeed anarchists - undeniably so - in that the endlessly fight against the will of the democratic State of Israel - regardless of who is in power. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Not really surprising. The West Bank has been considered occupied territory by the entire Western world since '67. Even when the most pro-Israel Presidents of the most pro-Israel country were dependent on alliances with US-Jewish groups, they still didn't change the position of considering it occupied territory. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 A highly positive move, as ever - let's hope it progresses from there. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 These are NOT pre-requisites, but outcomes of negotiation. Hopefully the Saudi diplomats will eventually recognize this, and enter into negotiations. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will Edwards 09/22/09 02:44 PM I apologize for that blanket statement… Of course there are Islamic individuals of honor and integrity. As a group, however, they are lying cheating mongrels of hatred. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm....no comment required here, I think.... I'm with Alan Weisbard on this one. Such rules are NOT enforced equitably, and this is a disturbing episode. I've never been to Montreal, but I've been in many taxis with Christian or Muslim artefacts, and in many cases it's simply lead me to believe them to be a believer in God, and often to interesting and positive conversations. What justification there is for the regulating body to object to this, when customers haven't objected, I would like to know. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Beck is indeed a demagogue, as has been pointed out, but he's also an entertainer. He doesn't PRETEND to be a serious news outlet, but an extension of talk-radio style entertainment. It was a silly comment, but I've disagreed with Jewish friends still in the US. He may have been trying to co-opt Jewish holidays for his own political ends, but this guy does that kind of thing all the time! The portion of his audience not watching it as car-crash TV (I've watched myself) may like it, but I'm sure nobody will let it endanger the integrity of the event. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Contrary to what some would have you believe, Human Rights organizations such as HRW spend much more time on countless other countries that on Israel, Iran being one of those countries. A few of the others in this are are Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Sudan, amongst many. Iran's in a peculiar state of stasis, given the mass unrest and dissatisfaction, and following the bravery of the protesters there, but hopefully political pressure will mount. It's already massively damaged the functioning and security of the country. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm not sure Hamas is the place to go for progress. Fatah and the West Bank have a chance of progress. Not Hamas. There needs to eventually be more indirect engagement, but it's not a starting point. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BTW - It's called "reductio ad Hitlerum" - the reduction of any argument to being about the Nazis. In this case it's entirely disingenuous. To compare the way the rest of the developed world is seeking to deal with the Iran issue to Chamberlain is farcical... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is a remarkable piece of misleading propaganda, fuelled by politics. I would like to know why - when ALL OF THE WORLD'S POWERS are united in their position, this guy chooses the US to attack? The head of Shin Bet says the earliest any nuclear weapon could be developed is 2013/2014 - and that's from a man with a clear vested interest in playing up the immediacy of the threat. Of course there IS a threat, but entirely deceitful Op-Ed is exaagerating the immediacy of it as a means of making a cheap political attack. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's an over the top statement - certainly the US could deny the right to use Iraqi airspace if they feel any actions would damage America's interests, or would shake up ME stability... But then Russia, China, UK, Germany, France, Japan, and essentially all of the world powers are agreed on the issue - that it's much too soon to consider a potentially catastrophic move, but that it should be kept on the table. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm totally with this AJC man on the issue of investigation. What I've been waiting for since the Goldstone report, and all of the other reports from Israeli organizations, and NGOs, foreign allied govts, and all the rest, is a detailed rebuttal to at least some of the allegations - perhaps based on the massive amount of Intel collected, the tracked movement of IDF vehicles and troops, or the mass of footage and evidence collected by the IDF at the time... I'm still, optimistically waiting...... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 On the JTA article, I repeatedly had to point out that both the article itself, and the two opposing statements so many Jewish celebrities rallied around, specifically said that there was no boycott of Israeli films, none was called for, and no individual filmmakers were being maligned or targetted. But then none of the posters actually read the brief statements themselves... Most people prefer to prattle on in ignorance... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wholly predictable of course, and even though I support most of the allegations made, it is still right that the US assists in disputing any which are debatable, or where there is a lack of evidence, or evidence to the contrary. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Incidentally, the US is just one country out of...er...pretty much the ENTIRE DEVELOPED WORLD except us, who are daring to try to use political pressure first...it's only political opportunism that makes so many posters (especially those in the US) ignore, say, Russia's recent pressure against invasion. hold on...the Saudis and Jordan will support us a bit... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - Really? A comparison to Hitler, on the grounds that they both offered Rosh Hashana greetings? I certainly didn't think you were one of those irrational wing-nuts, who cheapen the suffering of Jews by calling up Hitler's name every time they have a disagreement with a leader.... I'm sure YOU offered greetings...which makes you like Hitler...(Oh, my - I'm like Hitler too!)....AAARGHH!!! My Mother's like Hitler!!! AAARGHH!!! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yeah - he's quite right on that, but it's crucial to recognize that he didn't say they aren't A THREAT...he said they aren't an EXISTENTIAL threat, which is certainly true. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will Edwards 09/18/09 02:04 AM ...It has long (after all it set this whole process of Palestinian occupation on Jewish land up in the first place) been a supporter of anti-Semitism. Most of the nobles in England were Nazi sympathizers in the 1930’s and if Hitler hadn’t attacked England they would have been allies of the Nazis. England has been a corrupt self righteous state of elitist abuse against the common citizenry for hundreds of years and their support of Arab States is more out of spite for Israel then any thing else. Let England sink in to the sea. ----------------------------------------------------- Will - That's provable BS. Plenty of posters on these boards have been unable to ever point to any country in the world they don't consider to be naturally anti-semitic, and much of it's racist, xenophobic BS... To give a few points:- 1) Britain and the Germans were wholly opposed PRIOR to WWII...you may have heard of WWI, and the reconciliation in the lead up to WWII went rapidly downhill when the Nazis came to power. This was at a time when Britain and the US were both similarly racist and anti-semitic. 2) Your claim that they started Palestinian occupation of Jewish land....A THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE BRITAIN WAS FORMED??? 3) Where did the Balfour declaration come from? 4) Who are the countries we probably owe our lives to? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE - As per usual, not sure what your posts about. Have you confused me with somebody else, as your reply, and the quotes certainly aren't from my post, as you will see if you look back and read more carefully. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - why do you think this missile system would be of use to Israel, or to the US? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Didn't Princess Diana's son Prince Harry do the same thing a while ago? Totally unacceptable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Seems fair enough. I try not to buy produce from the settlements, as I am against them, and I know other people who do likewise. As they're internationally considered illegal, it seems like a reasonable move! Even if you personally disagree, they are still considered illegal by others, and you have to respet that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Rubbish as ever Yosef When are you going to write an opinion of your own? Who knows? Maybe it'll be better than your poor bloggers? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Quite right - it was pointless, and more aimed at pressuring Russia than anything else. Russia are a key ally in the pressure on Iran, so that wasn't a good move. I'm sure Western Europe and the US are more than covered from the Iranian threat. They won't be the target... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ah - HILLEL! I notice you've just created your account, and use exactly the same terms as Tamar/ Lawrence/Pierre/Shaul/Ari/Mussa... Could it be? Surely not! Btw - Cheryl - the wall is a separate issue, in that it prevents entry into Israel other than at checkpoints. The roadblocks are to stop travel betweem Pal villages and towns, and doesn't benefit Israeli security - in fact quite the oppositie. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ah - HILLEL! I notice you've just created your account, and use exactly the same terms as Tamar/ Lawrence/Pierre/Shaul/Ari/Mussa... Could it be? Surely not! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - the dropping of leaflets etc. was indisputable, but the problem was that the UN, and other investigators have made various allegations which are separate from that. Indeed, many allegations center on the bombing of places civilians were sheparded INTO - and when there were no reports of militant activity. Secondly, with regard to human shields, the UN has said both sides did so, and has documented those instances fully. It's not an excuse for the vast majority of the accusations made - and isn't relevant to very many of them. Where it is claimed, it has often been found to be incorrect, so while both sides certainly used civilians as shields, there are still a vast range of specific allegations where that doesn't apply. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, there have been endless comments on this topic in the past 24 hours, and I haven't seen a single one, either from posters, or from the IDF contesting actual claims, with actual evidence to the contrary... No doubt pointing this out will lead to...guess what...posts that don't actually dispute the findings of this report, and the findings of pretty much every group who have investigated it, Israeli and otherwise, with the sole exception of the IDF! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The continuing removal of roadblocks, as well as the gradual handover of responsibility for policing are both crucial moves. That the roadblocks were still in place was a farcical embarrassment. Generally they served no security role for Israel, and were just a way of damaging the quality of life for Palestinian civilians. Certainly the likes of Tony Blair talk glowingly of the progress that has been made (not that I consider him an honest guy) 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, this is one of those threads that's so off issue as to be of little value. Anybody who has even scanned the report will know of the specific allegations, and can debate them in detail...instead we have one side saying "The allegations are right" and the other side saying "The UN are liars"...and nobody is making a particularly valuable point. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - The article talks about BOTH sides looking forward, and the irony is that your posts endlessly look backwards, so I don't think we're in any position to be casting aspersions. The claim that "we've always been willing to meet them halfway or more" is also a glaring inaccuracy. Not many independent would support that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 At 99 years old it's a wonder that she still knew her own children... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - my point was that the claims made in the article originally by Adrian Michaels (if I remember correctly) were massively misleading. The Spanish immigration one was the best example, and was quite blatant. The Brussels one also. Yes - Brussels had a large muslim population for many decades, so it's not a case of recent immigration; unless, for example, you would count the bulk of US citizens as being a 'wave of immigration'. There's also the fact that pretty much every muslim family calls at least one of their son's Mohammed - often officially more, so it's not an accurate indicator of population. The claim that non-muslim European women have only 1.2-1.6 children each is also clearly incorrect. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - can you start posting links, instead of cutting and pasting vast swathes of text? I'm not sure many people are reading them, and it's rather like Yosef's blogging. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - I'm not sure the conflicts between settlers and Pals is evidence that they are a good thing. The wall is a different matter. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, I've not seen the slightest effort to disprove the allegations with facts. The IDF have apparently investigated, and continue to do so. Their vehicles are tracked. Their hierarchy monitor troops. The missile launches can be tracked and recorded, and yet I've not seen ONE allegation successfully disproved, either when it was from the apparently anti-semitic Jew Goldstone, or from any of the other many organizations. Basically everybody else in the world has said it happened one way, and that BOTH sides committed warcrimes - not just Hamas, and that's the level I fear we descended to during Cast Lead. If I'm wrong, somebody'd better start disproving the actual direct allegations. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL - I just posted this on another thread:- "This is about the 4th thread I've looked at in the past 4 minutes, and on each one you'd made a long speech. I googled a section of your speech, and they're all from other people. Could you start attributing your quotes, and maybe providing a link, so that we know what's you and what's a quote? I know you may not see this, so I'll stick it on any of the other threads I read in the next few minutes where there are unattributed quotes" In this case the article you quote I actually remembered well. I remembered it being completely blatantly false. There aren't many facts in there, but the few there are are false, or massively misleading.:- 1) The Spain stat - a very small proportion of Spain's recent immigrants have been muslim (primarily Moroccan) and the article takes care to reference muslims, then provide a stat about general immigration. As a piece of rather cheap propaganda, it took care not to mention that the vast majority were Romanian and Bulgarian. 2) Mohammed was one of the 10 most popular names in Brussells right back in the 1950's! It's as it's given ceremonially, as most Israelis know, most firstborn sons are given the name Mohammed, even if their real name is something else. 3) The immigration stats were also proven to be incorrect by a riposte printed in the same newspaper the article was from! It was due to the accession to the EU of a number of countries, so people from neighboring countries flooded into them prior to their accession. Also, immigration has dropped dramatically due to the economic depression. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cue the backward-looking hatred... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 A right decision - it's very intolerant laws, which lead to such a sentence for a chant, and it's good to see that so many countries take chants seriously. I'm not one of these people who dismisses everything as 'freedom of speech' or a 'basic right' - the limits of freedom of speech are quite rightly held to be at incitement. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Incidentally, there are 6 of the world's major powers in the negotiations with IRan, and there's a relatively united front. Even China aren't looking to control Iran, and Russia's ties are limited, and influencable (if that's a word) by us. Some people are never happy. There may only be a few years before Iran could have a nuclear weapon (2013/14 at the earliest according to head of Shin Bet - people always wrongly believe they are closer) but negotiation and diplomatic pressure is always going to come before war. It's always easier for people outside of Israel to be in favor of a war - they often have less understanding of the political fallout of such action, which can rumble on for years. For once we are on the same side as many Arab countries, and the entire developed world. There's good unity on this one. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 David - Cheryl sometimes talks of moderate muslims, and other times swings to this extreme, and ironically talks of how 'hate filled' they are by nature. Incidentally CHERYL - this is about the 4th thread I've looked at in the past 4 minutes, and on each one you'd made a long speech. I googled a section of your speech, and they're all from other people. Could you start attributing your quotes, and maybe providing a link, so that we know what's you and what's a quote? I know you may not see this, so I'll stick it on any of the other threads I read in the next few minutes where there are unattributed quotes. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE - I'm with Andy Hingston. It's probably best not to argue with you, as we've established over a period of time that you and Tamar/Mussa are a pair of deeply mentally ill and disturbed old individuals, incapable of rational thought or argument. On other threads at the moment you call everybody from Leland Madearis, to Will Edwards and Cheryl things like Arab pawns, Arab-lovers, a**holes, etc. etc. Go back to whittling on your porch and shouting at passers by. BTW - you won't undertand irony - I know you ain't no reader, but you disputed my point that smear tactics are used, before calling me all the name under the sun, Poindexter! Yesterday, when you attacked me, even though you agreed with me, you even deceitfully tried to interpret my phrase "Let them have it" (about rocket attackers) as meaning 'support', even though I'd already called them pathetic, loony, etc. Stop wasting my time you old crank. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE:- I know that you're a deceitful, and deeply mentally ill, twisted old a**hole - and yes I am descending to your level, as you invariably just insult people - but clearly you're just sticking with being plain old deceitful for the time being...read my post again, and see how you can possibly be a call for support. I know that in your day that there fancy schoolin' wasn't for the likes of you, but try really hard, and get a nurse to help if necessary:- "These two-bit, wingnut groups are desperate to claim responsibility for their pathetic attacks to gain support. If that’s the best they can do they can have it. " Now stop wasting my time, with your purposeful and strained attempts to 'misunderstand'. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - unpleasant though it is, it is a pure necessity that the worst of the worst have to be able to come to international meetings. Were Ahmadinejad simply visiting the US, that wouldn't be allowed. Clearly it's in both US and Israeli's interests. The alternative is a Kim Jong-Il situation of complete isolation. Engagement means that you have to put up with him being over there for a few days. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - I agree. The thread has in no way addressed the topic in hand. It's a major issue, with many points which could ostensibly be easily discredited with contradictory evidence, if it exists, which is what I would like to see the IDF do. Disprove THE EVIDENCE. Clearly Hamas aren't even going to try to disprove the allegations of their warcrimes - that would be laughable, but if Israel, with the GPS, war records, testimonies, comms records etc. can't disprove the claims made, then it would be shameful. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 One person at a Beverley Hills party disagreed with Livni? So What! It says a lot about politics in such places that only one person disagreed with her. This is an astoundingly pointless 'story'. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Why not call them 'disputed', or better yet, simply don't specify a country? Before somebody replies, regardless of our own individual opinions, it is officially, internationally disputed territory, 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sadly, even this isn't enough of a deterrent to make the dangerous trip a less attractive prospect for young African men. However, this action is probably necessary. Again, the cooperation on the Egyptian border is invaluable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I followed the N.Irish peace process closely, and that Mitchell doesn't give up, spending endless time with both sides, building up trust and a personal relationship. It must take astounding diplomacy to be a mediator. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - a factual correction - the UN (and HRW for that matter) have spent more time and resources on Darfur than Israel. The victimization claims, and the anti-semitism claims rather fall down on this one. The only thing left would be to dispute the actual direct claims, if possible. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DAVID AND KEITH RUGG:- If you'd actually read the two statements, you'd see that you are both wrong. There's specifically NO BOYCOTT, and NO BLACKLIST, overtly or otherwise. I recommend actually clicking on the two links of the actual statements to understand their respective positions. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sad, but market forces I suppose. The fact that we are all online shows we aren't in a position to throw stones. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This fits in with the University reinstating classes on High Holidays. Such are the problems of being a minority religion. I respect the decision of these girls, but I don't think that minority religions should be able to insist that nothing is scheduled for their religious holidays, and that applies to ALL religions. If you've ever had to schedule events, you'll know how hard it is. This is just an example of the kind of sacrifice people admirably make for their religious beliefs. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I also disagree with calling the NY Times overtly Republican - and it's certainly not anti-semitic. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Keith Rugg - Leland is right on this one. What Leland was suggesting was that if every minority religion in a country got public holidays for their religious holidays, then there would be chaos. What YOU are saying is that the majority religion having public holidays is unfair. So you therefore believe that everybody from Muslims, Buddhists, Scientologists [sic], Zoroastrians, Pagans, etc. should all have public holidays for their religious festivals??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Steve - much as I disagree with David's representation of the situation, a simple factual point is that no boycott was proposed, or supported. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Too right. The in-fighting between Jewish groups in Israel, and the ascent of the Orthodoxy has seen numerous divisive policies introduced. Cheryl - if you don't know of any group in Israel who face religious discrimination, then I suggest you come here, or read the JTA boards as people attack other groups. I'm no fan of the Olim, but they're both the target, as well as a source of much racial and religious discrimination, and the increasingly religious nature of the IDF is also worrying. We want a modern, truly democratic, secular state, Jewish in nature. Not a theocracy. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm with Leland on this one (sure you're glad to have me on your side!), but I think all of these judgements should be on the basis of the demographics of your student body. If 20%+ are of a religion, then you consider it. If it's under 1%, then there's no chance. It has to be a practical measure, as it certainly is pretty divisive. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I thought from the start that the Israeli govt could easily have participated, while also expressing their disgust at any inappropriate methods or sources used. The fact that they didn't reflects badly, as it always does, on the confidence the IDF had in the extent to which their actions were within the boundaries of international law, or morality. Now it's for the IDF and the govt to dispute any claims using evidence, but they never do that. Cue the attempts to smear rather than dispute the claims. The report is available for all to read, and I'm sure many people will wrongly claim that it only attacks Israel - it doesn't. It attack BOTH sides as having committed warcrimes. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 These are astounding quotes. Aharonovitch is famously extreme, but to have actual quotes telling police to get into even Arab areas "to strengthen Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem" is astounding. It'll be a great boost for the extremists like Hamas et al. It's yet another thing they can point to to prove Israeli govt attempts expand sovereignty. It's also a great big stick with which the rest of the Western world can beat us with, just as we're coming into negotiations. Why better security wasn't in place to ensure that such memos weren't leaked, or were more ambiguously worded I don't know. It's an extremely amateurish piece of politics. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - Interestingly, although I had also assumed a boycott was being called for, that's not the case. It's a dispute over the frame of reference of the festival, rather than a call for a boycott. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wow. I've just had a look at both statements, and there are a mass of celebrity Jews on either side, but it all seems to be a bit of a false dichotomy. One statement argues that the festival should reflect the history of Tel Aviv as well as being purely "celebratory", and says that individual film-makers should be welcomed (i.e. not boycotting individuals, or the festival as a whole) - specifically it says "We do not protest the individual Israeli filmmakers included in City to City, nor do we in any way suggest that Israeli films should be unwelcome at TIFF", but that it shouldn't have been organized as part of a marketing campaign for Israel. Essentially that the organizers should make some move to acknowledge the Arab culture of Tel Aviv & Jaffa, or not to select film-makers from only one section of society. http://torontodeclaration.blogspot.com/ The counter-statement says that there shouldn't be a blacklist (which wasn't proposed, as JTA points out), talks of the high quality of the films (which again isn't really disputed), and says that "they are in no way a propaganda arm for any government policy". That's absolutely, indisputably true - the individuals involved are all of independent and critical mind, and yet again something that both sides would agree with. http://www.jewishtoronto.com/blog_post.aspx?id=1359 One side is saying that the individual film-makers are fine film-makers, but that the festival as a whole examining Tel Aviv can't avoid all reference to it's history, or to the Arabs. The other is saying that they are fine film-makers individually, and that any attack on the festival as a whole would affect them as individuals. Essentially both are right in their different points. A festival organized even as an advert for Israel should really reflect history and culture, rather than selecting participants from only one section of society, or avoiding any references to history, but at the same time, this is certainly not the fault of the film-makers themselves. Certainly they are, as the counter-statement says, the most progressive sections of society, and are not propagandists themselves. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE- If you go back and read my initial post, you may be able to comprehend the basic English it is written in, in which I said that it was "angering" from the headline, but that I supposed this was the application of the same laws primarily used against Neo-Nazi groups and anti-semites. Consequently my position was that it wasn't perfect, but that laws have to apply to everybody. Good luck with the reading this time. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think JTA covers 9/11 related issues pretty well, but given that it's the JEWISH Telegraph Agency, they aren't going to be doing investigative general pieces. For that your local US media will more than cover it. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE - As ever your post doesn't make sense. I attacked the attackers. You clearly, and obviously agree with me, but entirely dishonestly tried to attack me! Just a continuation of your clearly mentally unstable insistence on using every post to attack people whether you agree with them or not, in that bitter and twisted way you do. Clearly this is one of many fringe groups, but that wasn't raised either in my post, or the article, so you're basically trying to suggest that I don't agree with something merely because I didn't make every applicable point possible. On that basis, I notice that your point didn't mention that it's sad when puppies die. I assume then that you don't agree that it is? Incidentally, you were attacking the messenger...irony presumably lost on the likes of you and Tamar/Mussa/David Ehrens 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Bin Laden has consistently tried to manipulate US public opinion as a weapon against the US. Presumably in this case he's trying to bolster US support for Israel, given that support for the extremists in muslim countries has fallen notably in the past 12 months. And before somebody comes back with an irrelevant post, the latter part is indisputable, in that it's been found in EVERY poll. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yosef - yet again, of your countless posts, there's not been one yet which you've written yourself. However, you also have to set your US-centric politics to one side, and accept that the FIVE major world powers agreed collectively to engage with Iran. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 These two-bit, wingnut groups are desperate to claim responsibility for their pathetic attacks to gain support. If that's the best they can do they can have it. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - Nope. Setting up an impromtu protest in direct opposition to a counter protest planned in cooperation with the police can lead to public disorder offences, and could be charged in that way. And clearly it was about whether the protest was planned, etc., and security issues, rather than showing a flag. What I was asking in my post was whether we support the highly restrictive laws in Germany which have been established primarily for use against Neo-Nazi, or anti-semitic displays. This is the same situation as a provocative protestor setting up opposite a pro-Israel rally with a view to causing disorder, and it's up to the police to decide whether the actions of the counter-protestors were dangerous, incitement to violence, or contravened pub lic disorder laws. The thing is, if they got rid of them, it would be Neo-Nazis and anti-semites who would benefit most. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 YOSEF:- As ever you just quote the most ridiculous bloggers. There's no logic to this one, and it fails even basic reading. It's a particularly ungrateful, selective, revisionist and racist diatribe, which has countless points which are clearly ridiculous. - Didn't Europeans SAVE Jews from the Nazis too? - Why would post-holocaust guilt make them anti-semitic? - If Europe as an amorphous body is anti-semitic, then clearly the whole world is! - Europe has a "propensity towards pacifism"? They've had more wars per person in the past couple of centuries that pretty much the rest of the world put together! This is an interesting article, which raises many issues around the limits of the right to freedom of assembly and freedom of speech. I don't know why you don't just find better bloggers to quote, or even better, form and express an opinion yourself, which I've never seen you do. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I know how elitist the Ivy League Universities as a whole are, and usually despise the elitist, right-wing, spoilt mentality that this often causes. However, orhanizations having anti-semites doesn't make the institutions themselves rabidly anti-semitic any more than, say, the Post Office. It's a bit of a ridiculous suggestion. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - it raises interesting points though. Will is arguing that even the massively restrictive laws against various anti-semitic practices and unplanned protests in Germany is not enough. You're pointing out that such laws are against freedom of speech. Anyway, in this case it says the fine wasn't for waving a flag per se, but for setting up a counter protest opposite without having informed the police, and all of the security and public order consequences that entails. In the US there are also some similar laws, which have been used, incidentally, in similar situations. It's about the extent to which authorities have to be informed about protests. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL EDWARDS:- You may not feel Germany is one of the toughest countries on anti-semitism and good at policing anti-Israel protests, but would you name a few other developed countries which have been tougher? Certainly the other German-related story on JTA today supports this, and rather disproves your point. Israeli Jewshave a broadly positive perception of Germany's relations with Jews, and involvement in the ME, according to a moderately reliable looking academic survey. http://jta.org/news/article/2009/09/13/1007810/most-israeli-jews-like-germany Who are the anti-Israel groups you think Germany sides with??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The settlements flip-flop will hopefully be glossed over, and clearly a temporary freeze will be enough to ensure negotiation with Abbas. Nonetheless, positive words from Bibi, even if his actions sometimes have to play to the more far-right elements of his coalition. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Striking causes massive disruption for everybody else - it's not the answer. These are brutal cuts which will affect everybody, but protests are better off not annoying people by disrupting their lives. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BITIN DAWG:- There are requirements with regard to intelligence and skills too...maybe you should start with those, and work your way up to Judaism later. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MELVYN:- I usually see people attack poll when they are conducted by entirely partisan lobbying groups - not when they're conducted by universities. I think the first thing you have to learn about reading polls is that you look at the source. In this case the source is less than perfect, but not as bad as most. Such a poll COULD be a political move, but academic sources are considerably more robust than ad hoc, lobbyists polls. Germany has been a good friend to Israel since WWII - clearly through guilt, and rightly so. It says a lot that their actions have been clear enough that the majority of the population can judge them by recent years, and not by the Nazis. As a result of their past, Germany is one of the countries who are toughest on anti-semitism - to an extreme extent. Their Holocaust denial laws are an example of this. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DJL:- I always despise any rush to hysterically label broadly pro-Israel groups as 'anti-semitic', so I'll defend Harvard and Yale generally in this case. Regardless, in this case an advert which goes beyond the boundaries of free speech was published - albeit in a marginal outlet - but Harvard and all institutions need to ensure that their editorial checks are sufficiently robust to ensure that it doesn't happen. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DJL:- And I suppose you think that applies to the other 5 major world powers too, or does that not fit into your domestic, political, America-centric view of the Iran situation? Are you suggesting that negotiation shouldn't even be a starter? I know that's a more attractive position when the trouble is at arms length. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DAVID EHRENS:- Because JTA follows news related to Jews around the world. The acronym stands for JEWISH TELEGRAPH AGENCY. Hope that's cleared something up for you. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 African migration is a tragic but intractible problem. On the face of it, these people could feasibly be picked up once they'd been spotted rather than being shot, but frankly a deterrent is needed. Even the countless thousands who drown in the ocean each year aren't enough of a deterrent to prevent so many primarily young people seeking a better life, but it seems to be the only option. On the upside, the cooperation on the Egypt-Israel border is always valuable to us. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The German authorities have generally been relatively extremely effective in policing anti-Israel protests, and in dealing with anti-semitism. I suppose this is the same rule applied to pro-Israeli groups. Although the headline was angering, if there is an organized protest for which policing has been provided, you can't have counter-protestors setting up unannounced, as it throws out the police plans, and creates an unstable situation. On that basis impromptu protestors setting up next to a planned protest should be fined - just so long as the fine is the same as those of other such protestors in the same situation. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Melvyn - well we'll completely disagree about this. According to all of the media outlets they were protesting against the singer as an Israeli-Jew, and their protest was political about Israel as a country. Clearly we've both agreed on how outrageous and inappropriate the protest was. However whether these Spanish protestors' perceptions of the actions of the State of Israel were colored by anti-semitism on the part of the protestors, we just don't know. I assume it wasn't the reason for the protest, although they may also have some anti-semitism too, as people don't protest against Jews in other Western countries, but against Israeli Jews. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I would certainly dispute that Melvyn - even though I have slammed the stupidity of the protestors in strong terms. They were protesting against her as an Israeli - not just as a Jew, and there's nothing to suggest otherwise - it was a political protest, but clearly they were taking their protest against a country out on somebody who clearly isn't associated with it, and in fact is involved in cooperation with various Arab groups. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hopefully it's just the occasional turn as happens at such a grand old age. The man does what would be a pretty full schedule for anybody, so hopefully that's all it is, and not anything more serious. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yosef - why you enlessly post other peoples' blogs rather than forming an opinion I don't know, but more importantly, I don't see the logic behind that blog. You're saying that these FIVE major countries (i.e. not just the US) entering into negotiations with Iran - at a time when Iran is still unstable and weakened - is a victory for Iran??? I don't follow that logic. Clearly Iran will have to be brought onside at some time for our sake, so that involves negotiations. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sanctions I see as being neutral in effect. They limit how much Ahmadinejad can bring in financially, but they also allow him to point to Iran being attacked and demonized, and play to his nationalist position. Look at Iraq and N. Korea. Sanctions only weaken people over decades, as they did with Saddam, and can just push leader to become more isolated while they still produce weapons, as with Kim Jong Il. In the few years we have before a weapon is developed (head of Shin Bet says it'll be 2013 at the earliest) clearly the political insecurities in Iran will force negotiation. If not, a few days of direct strikes on purely nuclear targets appears to have support from the West, and several Arab countries, limiting the political damage, but it will have to be when all other options have failed. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Blackie - I can't imagine why I'm entering into a dialogue with you! You're actually attacking me for opposing TD, even though you agree with me? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 hmm...This counter-offer is being interpreted as an indication that serious engagement will come in the next few months. Certainly the prospect of sanctions is a mixed blessing - it would benefit Ahmadinejad's paranoid, isolationist, nationalistic position, but would also massively damage their wealth and ability to develop weapons. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 She was being backed by the Arab Orchestra of Barcelona! I suspect this small group of protestors were the most deluded - clearly she's not a suitable target of protest, and so all they would do is publicize her performance! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The story that came through on the AP said that it was a Lebanese military official who was the source of where the rockets had come from, shortly before one of them was found on wasteland. Fortunately nobody was hurt, but it appears that it could be from some Hizbollah-linked or Hizbollah-inspired cell. I don't think it would be likely to be from Hizbollah directly or under their direct command, as it doesn't fit with their tactics. They would attack on a larger scale. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's a particularly unhelpful move, certainly, the motives of which are likely to be to appeal to the rather wide spread of support on which the coalition depends. Bibi has to appeal not just to his own supporters, but to those of Lieberman. It massively undermines the recent moves made by Bibi on the encroachment into the WB. The article is quite right, however, in saying that it is not going to derail the process, but it does also undermine our relationships with any Western allies. Even the US has been consistently against the settlements from the start, although they've not been quite as vocal about it before, but we're without an ally on this issue, at a time when one would be rather useful. It's also highly questionable whether the land exchanges will depend on the number of people each side can squeeze into particular areas, regardless of how long they've been there. Would these settlements really be a potential gain in the long-term, or are they just an expensive bargaining chip, which the mediators and the Pals won't really see as being a bargaining chip? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Come on TD - you'd have to admit that some people still find the use of Hitler's image offensive, even if it was for good reasons. Personally I think tthis fear of referencing tyrants is counter-productive, in that using Hitler in adverts some 60+ years on from his death only serves to mock him, and make him a figure of fun. No doubt he will be used in this way in coming decades, but for the time being, you could predict that it would be insensitive to the small proportion of people offended by his use...it has, however, meant a great deal more publicity for the cause. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ho Hum... Even when I agree with Op-Ed piece, I wonder what the point is. I know it's Op-Ed, but this guy is from the ZOA...I think we know that he will be out to smear J-Street, just as somebody from J-Street couldn't be trusted to put a reasonable argument forward about the ZOA. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Gena - sounds a little like a few claims driven purely by self-interest, rather than by any kind of logic, and rather off the point. The fact that the plight of Eastern European Jews has got considerably worse after the fall of the Soviet Union, despite it's many crimes, rather disproves your analogy. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - We certainly disagree on this one. I think up until WWII that was true - the fear of the 'other' fuelled countless conspiracies, disproportionate responses to crimes by Jews, etc. rather as we can see with muslims in many Western countries, Romanies in many Eastern and Southern European countries - well there are countless examples in fact. However, since then, I don' think it's true of Western countries. Leaving Israel as a state to one side, I can't really think of cases of individuals throughout the developed world who are targetted or attract disproportionate interest due to being Jewish. Of course there are exceptions - Eastern Europe being a very clear one. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So does this mean that people can choose 'Golan', without choosing 'Israel'? As disputed territory (and obviously nobody can say that it isn't disputed territory - people may feel it should belong to one side or the other, but that's why it's disputed!) this should be an option according to 'Honest Reporting's own principles on this case. What we can't have is wholly partisan lobbying groups quibbling over political arguments on websites or companies. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This pushing of E. Jerusalem projects rather undermines the more positive noises Bibi has been making recently about the issue. Clearly his ambiguity is both to retain his democratic base (and that of his more extreme coalition partners), and also to push the US a little. Hopefully he won't go too far, as we could do with an ally right now, and the E. Jerusalem projects have always been opposed by the US - now vocally so - as well as by pretty much the entire Western world. Balancing development with not alienating allies will be quite important. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Leland - don't worry, we'll all find money for that... Anyway, I believe personally that the ideal time for invasion would be a couple of years off. A weapon would take until around 2013 at the earliest according to the head of Shin Bet, and any attack now would serve to strengthen support for Ahmadinejad's nationalist tendencies. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I don't think people seriously doubt that the figure of civilians is much closer to the various figures of 700+ rather than the 300 figure from the IDF - the former figure is comparable to those reached by a very wide range of bodies and investigations, and the latter by the IDF. That they 'refute' each and every other report for using sources "with a vested interest" is ironic, given that they themselves have the most directly vested interest of all! However, what's done is done. There's not any substantial doubt about the general figures - just the specifics. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The article answers it's own question. The writer asks why Jewish scandals sell so well, and then talks of how Jews look out for stories relating to other Jews. There have, for example been countless examples of stories which got massive coverage throughout the specifically Jewish outlets, and stories about the diaspora reported widely in Israel in a way that other religious groups do to a much smaller extent. I can't think of any specifically Jewish stories within the diaspora where the media of that country took an interest disproportionate to the issue, whether it's Madoff or the Rabbi issues. In that case it was that they were religious that made them a point of interest. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 hmm...this sounds rather dubious - especially the most damaging part. The part about the curriculum not including anything on the holocaust is rather more believable, but we'll have to wait and see. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Certainly this isn't surprising. However, all of the top estimates of an actual timeframe, including from the head of Shin Bet not long ago, was that they could have a usable weapon "as early as 2013/2014". What the above says is that they have the low grade uranium to develop such a weapon. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Isn't this guy a shock-jock who said something else shocking not long ago? It's a massively insensitive comment, and he should be criticized for it. ...Just checked, and the below shocking story (Wiki'd I'm afraid) seems typical of his sensitivity levels:- "On 29 July 2009, Sandilands and co-host Jackie Henderson were leading a segment on their regular 2Day FM morning show in which a 14 year old girl was strapped to a lie detector while the child's mother, Sandilands and Henderson questioned her about sex and drugs. Sandilands was participating in the radio show from New Zealand via hookup. [23] Before questioning started Jackie Henderson had propositioned to the mother "What’s your worst fear? Is it the sex?". [24] The child started by saying, "I'm scared. It's not fair". Sandilands said, "She is scared everyone. Yeah."[20] The segment went astray when the child revealed she had been raped at the age of 12. After a long pause, Sandilands then asked "Right ... is that the only experience you've had?".[25][26]" 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Anybody spotted the blatant typo in the headline? Incidentally, JQP, 'Britian's [sic] Jews are a well integrated and integral part of British society, and I think I'm right in saying that they are already disproportionately well represented in both the levels of government there - the House of Lords and the House of Commons. Many former political leaders, including a Prime Minister and recent leader of the opposition have been Jewish and there are a great many senior politicians and businessmen who are Jewish. Certainly recently some of the top businessmen there, such as the retailer Philip Green, and the celebrity businessman Alan Sugar (now a political appointee) are Jewish, as are many MPs Many of the Jews there have their roots from pre-WWII, and Britain also welcomed many Jews during and after WWII. I remember writing to a member of their parliamentary Friends of Israel group of politicians. The simple fact is that although a population punching well above their weight, it's also a small proportion of the population, but it's certainly not under-represented by any stretch of the imagination. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Attitudes to intermarriage can be pretty appalling from some people, occasionally comparable only to the most extreme, rural, uneducated Pakistani regions. What's important is that Judaism and Jewish culture survives, and if a Jew sincerely wants to marry a non-Jew, we simply can't judge or abuse them - that only makes Judaism less attractive to other young people, and understandably so. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm pretty sure all of this is true. Chavez' dealings with Iran are a matter of record, and it's a mutually beneficial relationship. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Tamar/Shaul/Ari/Pierre/Lawrence/Mussa - Business trip??? But you post at all times of the day, and given that you post about how everybody from Olmert to Bibi is a CIA spy, I can't help but assume that your break is 'medical' in nature. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Certainly some interesting backroom shenanigans there, but with regard to the rumors being floated, they sound like guesses. I hope it's the Iran rumor though. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MELVYN:- To be clear, it wasn't a Congressional body, but was private research conducted by a wholly partisan organization, which we seem to agree on. However, while I agree with your point that "an organization can be partisan,but conduct an accurate poll"...the key word there is 'CAN'. According to my survey, 99.6% of surveys where the commissioner has a strong interest one way or the other go the way they want it to, thus overwhelmingly supporting my point. Also, whether organizations pay 1 research group or 2 doesn't really alter the validity of the survey substantially. What I was saying was that there are much more reliable groups, such as academic groups conducting more useful, robust surveys on peoples' opinions. If you want to spend time looking at surveys, that would be the 'less bad' option. This is from a lobbying group, and so like the surveys that tell me everybody thinks I should buy a particular cereal or brand of sneakers, lacks any validity. They just wanted to get an issue on the news agenda. That's how political lobbyists work. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I always point out how Iran has lept up the agenda throughout the Western world over the past couple of years, and there is unusual unity on the issue. Clearly pressure is being applied, further sanctions are being considered (not that I think they're either sufficient or useful), but the most likely outcome is internationally monitored energy production in Russia being piped to Iran in exchange for the economic benefits. Ay invasion would at most be a very limited attack on nuclear sites themselves, and clearly that itself would be hugely risky. I would probably support such limited action in a few years time if they were getting close to a weapon, but it's important for us that we don't go in alone, but with as much political support as possible. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The settlements issues raises it's head again. However, this is just the kind of brinkmanship and protest both sides have been, and will be engaging in for many years. There's been massive progress in the WB despite the settlement issue, and it will continue to be so after it's resolved. It's not of itself a TOTAL block on progress, but one of many issues. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 And yet some people claim that the settlements are just people living where they want to live! Blatant, undeniable pushes for spreading sovereignty even further outside the outskirts of Jerusalem are expensive and politically damaging. In the likely trade-off of WB land for Jerusalem, I don't expect this rather speculative 'land corridor' to make Maaleh Adumim part of Jerusalem. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 JQPs comments are pretty common amongst US citizens and many US Jews, which raises the question of whether being a spy from an allied country is somehow less bad than from a rival country? Certainly the consequences can be less bad, but the crime is certainly the same - stealing or passing on classified information against the wishes of your host country. I'd like to think that spies wouldn't be so much of a political pawn, with sentences varying from life to nothing. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Melvyn:- In response to your question :- "Would you rather have had an American Arab group conduct such a poll than a bi-partisan Congressional one?If not why not,if so,why so?":- The answer is of course no, for the same reasons I laid out - that surveys conducted by wholly partisan groups are essentially worthless. Your suggestion that it was a 'bi-partisan' group is incorrect, as you are basing that on a different topic. The Israel Project are clearly wholly partisan on the ME given that it's primary stated aim is to argue Israel's side on issues, so whether the researcher it pays are Reps or Dems is irrelevant, as that only shows that they differ on other issues. It was also not a Congressional report - the Reps and Dems referred to were from the researching organization. Therefore, clearly I would not give any credence to this, or a survey from an American Arab group, as I made clear. I regularly have to point out on survey 'stories' that they are invariably commissioned by lobbyists or partisan groups, and can give completely opposite pictures - the news 'silly season' is the time when there are a glut of them as they can get more coverage. I'm very passionate about the accuracy of surveys in news, and people need to read news outlets with a critical mind. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The first things I always ask about such surveys is who conducted it; what was the sample and how useful is it likely to be? The answer in this case is that it was conducted by a wholly partisan group. Were it by an NGO that even attempts to be even vaguely impartial I may give it a moment of my time, but it doesn't hold any basic validity on that basis. However, if had of, it still wouldn't tell us much other than that there is still a strong link between the American people and Israel, despite what the crackpots who shout about what a horribly pro-Arab, anti-semitic country burble on about. That's what I've been arguing for a long time, and I only wish this survey had of had basic face validity so that I could quote from it... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, for the people calling the Haaretz stories highlighted by JTA above 'lies' should really think through the nature of the media as a whole. They were'nt just presented in Haaretz, but ON JTA SEVERAL TIMES AS WELL! And Ma'aritz, JP, etc... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is a massive amount of progress, and very promising for the chances of undermining Hamas in Gaza, and keeping them far away from destroying the progress in the WB. It would be excellent if we could oberve elections without being too worried about the progress of Hamas, and any improvement in Fatah's standing in Gaza can only be a good thing - and before anybody fails to understand the point, that's as they're indisputably infinitely preferable to Hamas, and respond well when there is progress, as the WB shows. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I know I'm quite long-winded myself, but has anybody else taken to scanning posts? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I don't know if it's a good thing that the protests were peaceful for a day, or bad thing that people NOT being violent, attacking the police etc. actually makes a news headline! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmm...I was puzzled by this until I read the quotes again:- ""A two-state solution is clearly preferable and has been embraced at the grass roots," Carter said in an Op-Ed published Sunday in the Washington Post. He said the possibility of one state "is obviously the goal of Israeli leaders who insist on colonizing the West Bank and East Jerusalem." Sounds like he was speaking rhetorically and flippantly, or being sarcastic - there's no way any Israeli would support a one-state solution, as it would be demographically catastrophic - which is also true of the status quo. No - as has been pointed out below, a two-state solution is as close to being universally accepted as is likely to happen. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Irving is a pretty low level historian, only famous for his various prosecutions for holocaust denial. Therefore I'd be amazed if the story from El Mundo (a pretty major newspaper) was anything other than about his holocaust denial, and I'm sure that if it was in any way ambivalent in it's tone, that it would have been mentioned in the condemnations. That being the case, there's nothing which fuels the far-right, Neo-Nazi crowd more than being able to claim (with some legitimacy) that pressure groups of liberal Jews are attacking any organization that wishes to talk to them, or that their freedom of speech is being denied. Give people like Irving enough rope to hang themselves with, and don't attack a newspaper for daring to present unpleasant views - I'm quite sure that they were negatively biased against him, and as a particularly unpleasant, unlovable character, he's only likely to do harm to the Neo-Nazi agenda. I find the witch-hunt, mob mentality on some of these issues to be counterproductive. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Try as he might, the words that even some of his own allies reported were very clearly NOT about government, but an attack which is undoubtedly racist. When people say such exactly the same things about Jews we rightly consider them wholly unsuitable for office. If an Arab MK said this about Israeli Jews, then we would CERTAINLY push for them to be pressured from public office. Bibi ideally wouldn't have had to cover the blunders of Lieberman, but had no choice but to do so if he wanted the top job back. With this aide, it would seem highly likely that he'll be sidelined and then disappear from the political scene within a year or so. Bibi doesn't really need people to have another stick with which to beat him. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmmm...a story presenting a definite "slamming", but based on an anonymous source??? This is exactly what JTA "slammed" Ha'aretz for - AND THAT WAS ABOUT A STORY WHICH JTA REPORTED TOO!!! Really JTA - since you published a 'holier than thou' attack on news media (which was blatantly hypocritical) I've lost a great deal of respect for the Op-Eds. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ah - it's another series of crackpot wars! Back to the story - as a number of people have pointed out, the likes of Honestreporting.com, or camera.org are clearly not news sources in any way...compare them to what we're complaining about from actual news sources:- - News outlets make news where there is none - They select only that which supports the worldview of their target market, or what they will want to read - They use headlines to play up particular issues, or play others down - e.g. Bibi denies "x, y, and z", rather than Bibi accused of x, y, and z. - They very rarely check sources appropriately, and dd so inaccordance with those same commercial considerations of the target market's opinions. What lobbying groups do is push for one side of the argument to be predominant for ideological and dogmatic reasons. The fact is that news outlets are crucial to the world, but we have to read different sources, and read them critically - not allowing ourselves to swallow entirely what lobbying groups say - they in particular need to be treated with extreme suspicion before any nuggets of truth can be found. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 A quick search has just led me to an interesting snippet about how Steinberg has made discrediting HRW his main target, and how the claim he repeats above about HRW's disproportionate attention on Israel, rather than, say, Sudan, is provably false. In a rather interesting article, Leonard Fein tells of how he wrote to Steinberg, highlighting that the vast majority of their time in the region has been spent on Iraq, Sudan, Egypt, Turkey and Iran, but that Steinberg oddly didn't reply....a right to reply now, Mr Steinberg??? Beware of anybody with an avowed bigotry in their aims, whether that be some more biased HRW investigators (many of whom for Israel are Jewish, btw) or intellectually dishonest demagogues. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It would have actually been worth something had this critique of HRW for being anti-Israel not come from the Executive Director of an avowedly pro-Israel organization, set up explicitly to fight a pro-Israel side against NGOs. That would have been worth rather more, and I'd recommend JTA choose less partisan sources. It's rather like listening to HRW themselves! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 All THREE of these stories appeared in...er...JTA AS WELL!!! SEVERAL TIMES!!! This is clearly intra-media publicity fighting, which most media outlets engage in, and this is a particularly blatantly dishonest case - not least because JTA not only carried all 3 stories in similar form, but also carries countless unattributed stories which are denied by the accused - usually in exactly the same way. Haaretz, Ma'aritz and JP aren't perfect, but you can build a pretty decent picture of what is going on from reading a range of media outlets, looking for quotes, and considering the motivation of the people who gave them. I'd also say that the 'Watchdog' groups mentioned by Cheryl are all explicitly to promote a certain viewpoint, and are funded by people who have explicitly set out to do that. More independent academic studies of such groups regularly slams them for their empty implications of impartiality, and distortions. Just carefully read a few sources, be discriminating, and you'll be fine. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 That's probably hugely optimistic 2btrue. It's not just a matter of changing leader, invading again, and everything will be fine. Anyway, there's no doubt that they're stockpiling weapons - I think we all know that, and forewarned is forearmed. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Chavez is actually magnetically drawn to any despot who he thinks he can ally with to disrupt the West. I think the measure of the man's judgement is the wonderful story about how he took the Simpsons off Venezuelan morning TV for being 'unsuitable for families'.... He replaced it with Baywatch. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So the headline isn't "Fervently Othodox protesters in violent attacks"? These people have the support of very few in Israel, and yet we still protect them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Unsurprising...Russia, France, US, UK - all profit from selling weapons to opposing sides, without discrimination - particularly in Africa. All the allies profit massively, and none of their people directly suffer. Trebles all round! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Let them go. Norway divesting from one company won't be the end of the world. There are plenty of companies who profit from the settlements who will continue to do so regardless. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Buchanan is a "conservative pundit"??? Are media outlet afraid of legal action? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sounds fair enough. As regular posters may know, I often try to pick apart how much of the narrative of such stories is subjective, and directly from the authority involved. In this case it appears open and shut! There are numerous descriptions which aren't just a matter of semantics, and it sounds like appropriate action was taken! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - that's very true. What reflects that is the way that elder Israeli Jews and elder Arabs - including those around the world - generally tend to have more moderate perceptions of 'the other side' (although the word 'generally' is key there) as found from the countless studies on the ME conflict. Partly it's that kids like to get swept up in tribalism. In the past there were many mixed neighborhoods, and such cooperation was common - including 1950s and 1960s, as my father and grandparents used to confirm was true in the case of their friends. I suppose it's a case of accurately discriminating (excuse the choice of word) between the ordinary people who will partake in such cooperation, and those who won't, or who would support brutal acts against the other side. Hopefully a greater number of moves like this one, which I hope will be both socially, politically, and economically successful, serve to slowly undermine the dogma of terrorists. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Absolutely with Cheryl on this one. Regardless of how well the business park itself works out, the fact that there is such cooperation at a local level is only a good thing for all involved. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is a tragic case, and one which it's very difficult for Israel to respond to diplomatically. Clearly the position will be that they were the unfortunate collatoral damage in an attack which was supposed to be directed at militants. However, even many of it's defenders have expressed considerable concerns about the rules of engagement used in Cast Lead. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL AND MELVYN:- What's indisputably racist, and the point made by countless people which you've overlooked, is that the schools aren't saying "well pupil X we'll take, but pupil Y failed an exam"...they simply said that they would not accept these Ethiopian students. That's why the education ministry, and the vast majority of Jews of all types have rightly identified it as racism. There's been no examination or individuation between the kids. They've not been treated as individuals, but turned away as a racial group. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I seriously saw a headline earlier that said "Hamas head denies Holocaust"...a real bear / woods headline. Excellent that this is now included. Cheryl - on another thread you've just posted that the word nakba should be removed from all books in Israel, as the Pals haven't suffered at all, which is the opposite of what you're saying in the above post. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 David Evans - Firstly you can't really call it "Israeli propaganda"...it's JEWISH - not ISRAELI. Countries put money into education generally, and yes, that would include Pol Pot. If you disagree with that, then it's a matter for your democratically elected representative! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - that's a bit of an insane rant! Are you calling for a book burning? To be clear, the article is about it's use in education - not removing it from every book in the country. There are also some serious questions about the extent to which denying unquestionable suffering works - in much the same way as holocaust denial just makes us much more passionate in remembering it. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Mixed feelings on this. Banning words is astoundingly backwards and dangerous...undemocratic and dictatorial, and if it were Jews being told they couldn't call the loss of their land a catastrophe, then I would be outraged. However, the more excessive negative forms of demonization, or one-sidedness in education needs to be removed through a more balanced narrative in education, both for Arabs and Jews. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 TD - That's playing it down to quite an extreme extent. They are nonetheless rockets which scare the wits out of the local population - people who can live in fear. If there were fired within 20 miles of my house, I wouldn't be putting into perspective how few people are actually ever hit. That said, it's terrible that after the relative calm of recent months, this group are still - to a small extent at least - committed to proving that they still have a capacity to fire these rockets. It's intended to embarrass the Israeli govt, and provoke the kind of heavy handed response they use to boost their support. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, it's good that the Iran issues are high on the agenda around the world now. The IAEA has been pretty forward and outspoken on the issue, as even the Israeli Foreign Ministry acknowledged a couple of days ago. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 All very promising, and they're right to exclude Hamas. Regarding the above, the case of Pollard should not really be used as a bargaining chip in these negotiations - it's not a case which can particularly easily be argued. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Excellent - a good move from the education ministry. Incidentally, the fact that they are not discussing the level at which each kid will be started, but "how many Ethiopians" they'll take shows it to be blatant and overt racism against a group of Jews, which the govt is right not to fund. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I respect your reticence to cast judgement without the facts on this one Cheryl. On the extremely limited info, clearly we would assume the murderer to be primarily in the wrong - obviously. That said, we don't know the full facts of the argument they were having. It also sounds like religion and race weren't necessarily involved, according to the police 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I'm pretty disappointed. Sometimes you talk of decency, equality under God, and things like that, and then other times just go wild and unstable, making racist statements like that - and I wasn't the first to report it. Anyway, the IAEA have been pretty strong, as the Foreign Ministry's comment shows - "It is a harsh report...". In other words, the people MOST keen to push the report to the extreme feel that it is generally strong, but want it to go further - which is broadly as it should be. If somebody said "It's run by a Jew, you wouldn't expect honesty", we would rightly see it as a despicable racial and religious slur. Very disappointing. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - as I point out on another thread, we all know with 100% certainty that ‘Mussa’ is Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari Cohen, and is simply an insane US Jew who spends her time trying to provoke people. I say she is a Jew - what I mean is that she THINKS she is, despite her despicable and provocative comments...I think most people just ignore the madness… 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Shayndel - I didn't read all of your post, but on the issue of torture, I don't think you can claim that flushing heads down toilets IS torture, but what the US did wasn't - not least the threats of raping people's families and kids in front of them, or the kids who were actually raped, and who were later shown by US law not to be 'terrorists', but civilians. The argument is rather undermined when it has a huge proportion of support from the military and the ranks of the CIA other than the top dogs...when McCain and other Reps back it, it's tough to assume Cheney is doing anything other than covering his own back 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- I couldn't agree with you more on this - that's exactly what it is - an excuse. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - as I point out on another thread, we all know with 100% certainty that 'Mussa' is Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari Cohen, and is simply an insane US Jew who spends her time trying to provoke people. I say she is a Jew - what I mean is that she THINKS she is, despite her despicable and provocative comments...I think most people just ignore the madness... Oh, and in case you still aren't convinced, you'll notice she's signed the above letter as Pierre... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - again, we all know with 100% certainty that 'Mussa' is Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari Cohen, and so isn't an Arab, but a delusional provocateur, who sets out to wind people up. She lives in the US and is Jewish...or at least believes in her mind that she is - her actions and opinions clearly don't bear that out. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MOSHEBAER:- I usually think people decribe posters' views as being 'Nazi' or 'bigoted' rather too often, but yours clearly is - I nearly didn't reply, as they're clearly the rantings of an unstable and deluded mind, but thought it should be pointed out. You speak of how Saint Paul 'spawned hatred of Jews' (which is probably relevant, somehow...), but then go on a remarkable tirade against Christianity, with points like:- 1) "Christianity’s founder was likely a bastard according to Jewish law" 2) ".... well, here we are. Your man died" - Really? A little bit of glorying the death of Jesus? 3) "Vatican wage (c)overt war via Muslim Arabs" - The Vatican are attacking the Jews through their good friends the Arab muslims??? 4) "You and your religion are NOW obsolete" - Well Christianity has survived rather better than Judaism. All in all a pretty despicable attack on another religion of the kind Jews have been subjected to throughout history, and yet which still occasionally pepper these boards. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So people are aware, this guy has made a point recently of following my posts with entirely unrelated personal abuse...perhaps due to a dosage issue... DOUGLAS JAY LAMBERT:- "Ari H The pisher to the Zara Yiddish word to describe Ari who is arrogant, spoiled, and conceited, and thinks he is a big deal. Literally means an adult who is still in wet diapers. We know you graduated the third grade now be nice boy and go outside while the grown ups talk. " ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If how "the grown ups talk" is unintelligibly and unintelligently, then talk away!!! Again, your attack dog post related in no way to mine - if you want to play petty name-calling games, then it would be best if you didn't give me the advantage by acting in such a sociopathic way. People can look back at the couple of posts...I posted an opinion; you posted "Ari is lying how do I know his keyboard is moving… " I asked specifically what you disagreed with...you couldn't answer. Pure timewasting on your part. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Esther - that's ridiculous. The IAEA and the international community are relatively united in the belief that Iran is working towards nuclear enrichment, probably with the eventual goal of a nuclear weapon, which could happen as early as 2013. That said, Israel is a less than responsible owner of nuclear weapons, with not signing the NPT, declaing our weapons, allowing them to be inspected, and using them implicitly in threats against Iran, for example. Nonetheless, as even the Israeli govt response says, the IAEA have been suitably 'harsh' on Iran, and the issue is now fortunately high up the agenda. There's also the fact that enrichment hasn't progressed since March due to the political unrest. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- You may not be surprised at this, but that quote you post from him doesn't sound fuelled by a "hatred against the Jews"...It basically just says that he objects to the treatment of the Palestinians, and considers it an Apartheid system. We already knew that was his position. It's important to reserve suggestions of anti-semitism for instances where they may apply, of which this certainly isn't one - even though his comments in the Haaretz interview I consider to be wrong. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DOUGLAS JAY LAMBERT:- So people know, this *sshat has gone on an inexplicable campaign recently of following my posts with completely unrelated personal abuse...not objections to my points...just childish name-calling. I get the impression he doesn't actually have opposing opinions - just a deep pit of unrelenting twisted bitterness. To summarize the argument on this thread:- DJL:- Douglas called Trocaire a "Communist front Organization" - puzzling as I believe that no official or person involved has ever suggested Catholic-Church run poverty-alleviating charity Trocaire was in any way connected to Communism, and also as I haven't heard anything described as such since about 1989...outside of the paranoid ramblings of senile McCarthyites, that is... DJL: Also called ME a Communist front Organization, which didn't really make sense. ME:- I replied with a long list of points proving Trocaire to have a perfectly respected, normal modus operandi, and that he was wrong. DJL:- He replied to those points with...er...nothing...incidentally I'm rather happy with both my job and life...they certainly don't frustrate me enough to make puzzling, bitter, obnoxious, childish personal attacks the best thing I can find to do for fun. Basically, this religious charity has no links to Communism whatsover, and you haven't produced any evidence, as there is none - it's a farcical, unstable, and deluded accusation on a subject about which you appear to know nothing. Next! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The rather more respected poll not long ago looked atthe opinions of both Israelis AND Pals, and as you would expect, the Pals were unsurprisingly even less convinced that he was on their side...and rightly so - to suggest the US President is anything other than being primarily on the Israeli side - even when tough pressure has to be applied - is ridiculous. What does this tell us? That everybody loves to feel like a victim, and that in conflict resolution, the people that actually resolve issues end up being resented by both sides. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The major positive over the apst 12 months is that Iran has shot up the world agenda, and is a major concern to the major players, from the US, China, and the European countries. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 If this were not a hardcore Orthodox group, the police would have dealt with their barbaric, dangerous, anti-democratic actions against the state of Isralei long ago. Most Orthodox groups face some levels of prejudice on some issues, bu in this case, and with this group, they've behaved appallingly, and have no justification for the violent element within their protests. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 At last a story that will unite all posters! (except Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari/Mussa - she doesn't really count...and presumably can't). This is an extreme example of the despicable and destructive factionalism amongst Jews I've talked about on several threads, and I find it not only disgusting under a democratic state, but immoral, unJewish, and clearly racist. There are Jewish groups I disagree with - the ultra-Orthodox, the Haredi, the opinions which are more predominant from the Eastern European diaspora, etc., but they are all Jews, and in no way should their children be turned away from either public, or even private education on racial or fragmented, religious grounds. Despicable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Mussa Aliwat 08/28/09 01:51 PM whenever I see desmond tutu yimach shemo I think he belongs standing next to an organ grinder with a cup in his hand --------------------------------------------------- Sadly I wasn't the first to report this overtly racist comment by Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari/Mussa...but at least she wasn't glorying in the suffering of Ariel Sharon, or calling for the assassination of Peres, Olmert, Livni, or Bibi for being CIA, M15 or KGB agents, which is what has got all of her other accounts closed down. To be balanced, Tutu's credentials are beyond reproach, but I consider this comment by him a little absolutist. Certainly the Holocaust colors the positions of most Israelis and Jews, as is more than apparent from these boards, where the feeling of being near a brutal annihilation is often raised as justification for countless policies, and even hatred of many of our closest allies...it's raised even against the UK, US, Russia, and the resistance armies in France and many other countries, without whose sacrifice, we may not be here today to attack them. It's understandable given the severity of the situation. However, the position of the Palestinians is also an expected result of the formation of Israel, which itself is related to the Holocaust, but the consequent support of the aforementioned countries. Tutu's comments expand this influence rather too much into the current day. Although the Holocaust and the feeling of extreme victimization and isolation impact upon modern positions, they are not the sole driver...being the only predominantly Jewish state in the world does that, so I think he underestimates the extent to which the role of being a minority religion in a newly founded country drives positions, rather than solely the Holocaust. That said, he is clearly a highly intelligent, humanitarian man, whose positions on Jews in trouble has been clear, and he is certainly not an antisemite, as I'm sure some more reactionary posters will describe him. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cue the despicable, unJewish, intra-religious hatred of the deceased... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DOUGLAS JAY LAMBERT:- I'm an organization??? Glad you...er...think so highly of me! I didn't think schizophrenia meant you conferred multiple personalities onto others! I recommend people follow the link to this Christian organization who work in countless third world countries, as I don't think anybody will find the slightest hint of anything to object to. http://www.trocaire.org/whatwedo The vast majority of their work is around the world in the neediest places, and to put this $1m in perspective they spent:- - €10, 752, 363 helping communities earn a secure living. (in Africa) - €13,562,727 supporting communities in monitoring government expenditure, holding their government to account and demanding a voice in local and national planning (lobbying for democracy - again mainly Africa) - €14,191,418 responding to disasters such as flooding and cyclones and political unrest - €2,582,213 on HIV/AIDS programmes (again, mainly Africa) - €1,688,996 tackling gender inequality (mainly muslim and African countries) There's also one of the 5 sections which is titled "Lent" reflecting the fact that the charity is run by the Catholic Church in Ireland. So of course they're Communists...to the immoral, amoral DJL helping in Africa condemns them entirely! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sorry - in the first line that should read that we DISAGREE on many things 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 ARKADY:- We agree vehemently on a great many things, but I appreciate that we agree on this. Although the Eastern European diaspora is often shown to hold views I strongly oppose, they are still Jews, and more than anyone else, of all the allied forced, the Russians sacrificed the most in WWII...not that that's reason to have a different opinion on this matter....I digress. The fact is that Judaism is a minor religion on a world scale, and it really cuts me up how easily people describe others as not being proper Jews - I only do it when somebody transgresses the principles which are clear throughout Judaism, as I have recently with regards to respect for the dead when some people have been crowing over Teddy Kennedy's death (incidentally, somebody I wasn't a big fan of). To have such bigotry proposed as a tenet of the only predominantly Jewish state is abhorrent to me...either every religious group who have Jewish nationality gets funding (including the Arabs, and any Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, etc.), or every religion looks after themselves. We can't have some Jewish groups discriminating against other Jewish groups. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 VICTOR:- Care to say which of the elected leaders of the countries you mention you consider to be Nazis? Or would you rather it continued to be just a vague, scattergun, unsubstantiated slur on other countries, of the kind we all despise when it is used against us in exactly the same manner? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - The claim of one-sidedness came from a broadly comparable Jewish organization. The justification for Trocaire is that they operate in third-world countries - mainly in Africa - and lobby and push on development issues, so that they operate in Palestinian territories against settlements isn't too surprising...Israelis aren't stricken with poverty, so the criticism from the one Israeli group cited doesn't stand up. However, I can assure you that their charity shops are run largely by nuns, and the charity is well known and well established for it's Christian work in Africa mainly - it's worth putting into perspective that it's an extremely small proportion of their work which is in the WB. Regardless, they certainly have no connection whatsoever with terrorism, as a strongly Christian organization. The line "trains activists to oppose Jewish settlements " doesn't refer to terrorists - and I say that with 100% certainty. I assume it refers to campaigners. Trocaire as an organization are likely to be involved in water supplies and living conditions; freedom of movement and that kind of thing. I just don't want a wrong impression of an otherwise excellent major charity to perservere due to an ambiguity in that line...to reiterate, they're a huge charity, run through the Catholic Church, who generally do much excellent work throughout the third world, and the small proportion of their work in the WB IS IN NO WAY suggested to be in any way connected to terrorism. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DOUGLAS JAY LAMBERT:- Firstly your petty, childish attempt at gainsaying doesn't make any sense, as I didn't write any 'facts', but opinion...bit of an embarrassment for a regular little attack dog like you that you can't even compose a broadly competent riposte to an opinion...and that's ignoring the inability to form sentences. Secondly, which broad opinion expressed were you cack-handedly trying to oppose? 1) That Judaism and morality require some respect for people in death 2) That I was no fan of his generally, and thought he was guilty of something in Chappaquiddick 3) That he was one of the most important senators, and good to Israel, as even the very right-wing Jewish commentators say 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - Uzi certainly says he is a Jew living in Sweden, but clearly his subjective perceptions are not accurate, given that basic research through organizations that monitor demographics, or anti-semitic events showed him to be incorrect. For example, Malmo being up to 9% muslim rather than being 40% muslim is a pretty massive discrepancy, and is certainly notable enough to warrant a basic and direct correction. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think this is a ridiculous, backwards, and divisive proposal (which clearly won't happen) from the most dangerous group in the Knesset. It's avowedly racially and religiously prejudiced against people who have primarily made Aliyah from diaspora countries. The bile you often see towards the conservatives, or other Jewish groups looks to me rather like the divisions in Islam or amongst the Sri Lankan Buddhists or something...pointless, divisive in-fighting. There's certainly no place for it in the statute book, and fortunately it's only a political gesture, albeit a despicable one. I do, however, agree with the posters who've said that all groups should have to raise their own money. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - I disagree with TD on countless things, and have done so on the boards, and this is another. TD - I don't think it's in any way unreasonable to say that Zionists broadly want E Jerusalem and the WB, and I don't think it's something which can be said as if it's sinister or ridiculous of them...that's the basic position which has been the same for a long time! Equally, Pals generally would like ALL of Israel back, but both parties know neither is going to happen. You can be sure that Bibi and Obama, along with the other Western and Arab states involved will have come to some early negotiated positions. It's irrational for somebody to say "E. Jerusalem is off the table, so all the negotiations are a sham"... As I posted, I think the most likely outcome to a horriffic situation would probably include Israeli E. Jerusalem in exchange for a withdrawal from much of the WB, or maybe more water rights, etc. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Blackie - again you only show how pathetic your posts are - clearly you're being facetious, as you can see that our posts are very different. And was there anything in my post you disagree with or consider 'propaganda'??? "An extremely worrying story. We’ll have to wait to see what the response is once the IDF establish their position, and get to the bottom of it as the story develops. " In other words, I'm not even taking the JTA report at it's word, but am waiting to see. I know that for entirely evil, unJewish cretins like you, what you found disturbing was probably the suggestion that a potential killing of innocent people could possibly be a bad thing. Truly, truly unGodly and despicable... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - Trocaire is a religiously based charity run partly by nuns. There's not the slightest suggestion that they "aid or abet terrorists", or anything else, but are a lobbying group. Incidentally, as you can tell from them only spending $1m in the West Bank lobbying, I think their work is overwhelmingly in Africa, as they are mainly about development in poor countries. I was in a Trocaire charity shop when I lived in Ireland. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 An extremely worrying story. We'll have to wait to see what the response is once the IDF establish their position, and get to the bottom of it as the story develops. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 UZI - I see you've only registered today, and that the above is your first post - welcome to the site. However, in the interests of accuracy - ignoring the fact that you're talking about the country rather than the newspaper who actually printed this ridulous story:- - Sweden is believed to be 3.7% muslim, many from Europe - Malmo is around 9%muslim - not 40%. It is however the most Islamic of the Swedish cities - Not sure where you get the stuff about Sweden being generally anti-semitic. It fares well in ADL reports and reports on global antisemitism for the efforts the government has made with the UK and US, and it's not really out of step with other countries http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This kind of thing is a crucial cultural and diplomatic change, which reflects a thawing of the hardcore resentment both ways. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 But then Tamar/Mussa/Shaul, you were one of the many people describing Ireland and the Irish people as the most, or one of the most racist countries in the world recently weren't you??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 We've seen from both the removal of Arabic from some Israeli roadsigns, and this move how such cultural artefacts are beginning to become politcal footballs. Although the 3 language signs are relatively messy and impractical, they can be the best solution from a diplomatic viewpoint. It may matter little on a practical level given the population who speak solely Hebrew not being as big as Arabic or English, and it may be within Pal rights to do so, but it's an unneccessary symbolic move - even on a small scale. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's not really surprising. I've believed in the common view that E. Jerusalem is the main aim for our negotiators, while the settlements have been built up in the likelihood that they'll be a bargaining chip. It's also promising, as Jerusalem isn't as high on the Pal agenda - they have other higher priorities, so it seems likely that E. Jerusalem would become officially Israeli in any negotiations, at the expense of WB settlements. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Clearly there's been a lot of movement on the issue, but it appears that Bibi is still pushing for natural growth at the very least. I think that as per another story on JTA today, E. Jerusalem will be his more important goal. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's amazing how on a Jewish news site, a simple traditional Jewish belief in showing basic respect seems to have been lost... I'm no fan of Teddy Kennedy as a man - I've always thought he was guilty as hell in the Chappaquiddic (sp?) incident, but as everybody says, after that he became one of the most important Senators in the US, and yes, was good to Israel. Regardless - maybe I'm a fool for believing in basic respect for the dead? I even stood up for Robert Novak (who I despised in life) when the bile and glorying in death became too much...and as for the post above which seems to celebrate his death on the grounds that he was more economically left-wing than the poster would like....seriously! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The reports from yesterday said that Iran hadn't moved on nuclear enrichment since March - presumably due to the political instability. The only possible type of strike is a direct, in-out attack on the nuclear facilities... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 More positive noises from Bibi - sure they'll continue on his diplomatic rounds around Europe, drumming up support on the Iran issue. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Really - that's truly ridiculous... A tabloid newspaper prints a contemptible story, and you're so obsessed that you're joking that entirely innocent Swedish people don't get advanced healthcare? The obsession with the Swedish nation rather than the newspaper has got out of control...and incidentally, I think their health indicators are consistently amongst the top 5 in the world... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PHILI - Sorry - I foolishly and naively assumed you wanted a serious discussion about the merits or otherwise of the cash-for-clunkers program...I've overestimated you again... On the program anyway, I pointed out that even anti-Obama economists had said that it had turned out well, so you not understanding it is neither here nor there. There's also the fact that many other developed countries have since implemented their own similar programs...do you have any points related to that overwhelming evidence? Anyway, I see what this is - as somebody who follows Karl Rove on Twitter (as one of only 4 or 5 people if I remember, so not just as an afterthought) it's not surprising that you're actually trying to blame Obama for the economic downturn which was nearly two years in when he took office...not really a strong argument there. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hey - Where's my post gone??? I posted on this thread, and saw that my message was up there...weird. Anyway, the gist was that this seems by all accounts to be an open and shut case, in terms of procedure having been followed. If this kind of completely futile, pointless attack is the best that Hamas or their affiliated groups can manage then there's not much future for them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 KK / Cheryl - actually on the basis of this thread, KK was right to say that Tamar/Shaul/Ari/Mussa was directly advocating the same policy as is happening against Jews in Yemen - not drawing an analogy, but actually advocating it. However, on this thread, Cheryl hasn't, and to be fair, I noticed said some nice things about the Druze and their place in Israel, so that's a bit harsher... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL:- "It comes from a country where there is no journalistic integrity and the right to lie, cheat, and steal, is upheld by a wobbly government where everyone works for the state. " ------------------------------------------------------------------ I think that's exactly what I'm getting at. None of the above is in any way true -and provably so. Despite this case, Sweden is arguably the world's most developed country (by a wide range of social and economic indicators), with some of the most developed political engagement and stable government, where crime indicators are remarkably low...so the above is ridiculous. This has NOTHING to do with the government, just like the rare cases the article disgustingly recklessly tried to use to suggest a nation or government linked conspiracy. You can't have it both ways. I don't think the blatantly untrue smears on the country of Sweden is appropriate when arguing against blatantly untrue smears...that's just hypocrisy. And again, the article is from A NEWSPAPER - NOT a country... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Has David Ben-Ariel got a new login? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Arkady - it's not exactly my fault that what you wrote was so different from what you CLAIM you intended to write - it's yours. When somebody talks clearly about wanting to see "one could see Gazan body parts flying all over" in an Israeli attack on "innocent Gazans. Dreams, sweet dreams"....it seems pretty clear what somebody with decent-middling English means... Perhaps you got every second word wrong, and it's not just you trying to weasel out of having meant what you said... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili:- Yup the purchase of foreign cars has been a problem in the US program, but that was just one of the issues around it. By the opinion of all actual economists (as opposed to 'entertainment journalists' like Fox) it's been a success in getting capital flowing around the economy, getting cars off US forecourts, dealing with the massive surplus in stocks (which taxpayers were having to indirectly pay for), and boosting the sales of more economical cars. And there's no doubt that it's been used by a massive number of people, so the uptake has been high. The only arguments are whether it has been TOO high, and the program hasn't been ended early enough. Everyone from Krugman through to the much more anti-Obama Niall Ferguson have deemed 'cash for clunkers' a success, and a number of other countries have implemented their own similar problems. On the issue of Bernanke - I agree...I could care less. However, he is apparently very popular with Wall St., and has overseen a turnaround, so it's no surprise that he keeps the job. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 A clearly anti-semitic statement, which I hope he gets corruscated for by the general public... However, it's interesting that the politician's opinions are the same as those of Tamar/Shaul/Mussa! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Tamar/Shaul/Ari/Mussa - interesting response to this Labor Zionist being appointed to a decent govt position...but then of course you hate such a large proportion of the Jewish diaspora (of which you are a part) that this isn't surprising. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Mussa Aliwat 08/25/09 04:23 PM time has come to remove all arabs from israel including the racist druzeem. ----------------------------------------------------- Oh Shaul/Ari/Tamar (your most likely name)...so much irony in one sentence... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Neil - I'm not surprised you didn't get a reply. Firstly it takes ages to get a reply out of such institutions. Secondly, it's a bit of a hysterical letter. I fully agree with Will on the source of this reckless, dangerous and repulsive 'story' - a handful of isolated incidents over a period of years has been ridiculously claimed to be a national conspiracy, which is completely unsupportable, and a disgrace. However, to quote something I wrote on the other thread:- "some of the responses on the story are equally deluded and unhinged. It’s a matter for a newspaper; it’s not fuelled by anti-semitism; nor is it the fault of the roughly 3-4% of Sweden who are muslim...NOR is there a conspiracy whereby this one newspaper publishes this story on the back of Saudi sponsorship. Some of the delusional paranoia about muslims - even when there is absolutely no evidence of a link - is exactly the same as the muslims that blame Jews for everything that happens to them - saying we control the media or foreign governments… It’s clearly a despicable story FROM A NEWSPAPER, and some of the less stable members of society really need to think about that. " 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The cited case seems fine. The tensions are infinitely stronger when there are elements of religious or racial bias, such as in the provision of building permits, the interpretation of which apparently legitimate purchases were 'legal' etc. It doesn't sound like the village cited has a case of purposeful attempts to reach a Jewish majority, or a challenge to sovereignty, so it doesn't sound like a bad situation at all in relation to many other residential areas. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Joshua and Chris:- Well I agree with the separation of being Jewish and being Israeli - very much so - but I wholly DISAGREE with the idea that there could be something in the story. It's a hashed together compendium of a few cases over an extended period, from which the journalist has suggested a government conspiracy - it has no merit whatsoever, and is reckless. That said, some of the responses on the story are equally deluded and unhinged. It's a matter for a newspaper; it's not fuelled by anti-semitism; nor is it the fault of the roughly 3-4% of Sweden who are muslim...NOR is there a conspiracy whereby this one newspaper publishes this story on the back of Saudi sponsorship. Some of the delusional paranoia about muslims - even when there is absolutely no evidence of a link - is EXACTLY the same as the muslims that blame Jews for everything that happens to them - saying we control the media or foreign governments... It's clearly a despicable story FROM A NEWSPAPER, and some of the less stable members of society really need to think about that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Rob - that's quite a ridiculous, reactionary position to this one chef recommending a boycott of produce of the settlements (incidentally, a chef I've never heard of, and there doesn't seem to be much on the internet). I'm really tired of blowhards who are more vocal than their knowledge of the situation warrants attacking countries, and calling for boycotts, and that's as true of some of the posters on JTA as it is of this chef, who has little reason to get involved. The blatant hypocrisy is, that the opinion of Rob (above) in reaction to this article about one person's opinion in the UK, is the same, if not MORE reactionary!!! In other words, by the 'logic' presented above, Rob's call for a boycott justifies this chef woman's call for a boycott! It's an ironic paradox. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Arkady - that's one of the more disturbing posts - getting dreamy about targetting actual civilians - you do specify "innocent Gazans". People saying that we should go after the militants at any cost is one thing, but your post could have come from the most despicable supporter of Hamas, you appalling, vicious old hypocrite. Seriously, there are people who seem to know nothing of Judaism either as a religion, or a culture... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Why are Egyptian Intelligentsia so anti-Israel? The same reason other Arabs are! They think we took their land! I don't understand the point of the article. It's like asking why Israelis hate Hamas - we know the position of each of the groups involved, and their positions, and why they hold those positions... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As Cheryl pointed out the other day, the West Bank economy is seeing record growth, but even with that, 2011 is a purposefully adventurous (unrealistic) target. There's been huge progress, and certainly the way forward is increasing Pal responsibility for their own security forces and resources in exchange for the lifting of the restrictions on movement and industry, bit by bit. It'll take years to determine a state, and delays favor the Pals, so I don't think Fayyad's suggestion that there'll be a de facto state by 2011 is realistic. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PHILI:- I was actually saying Hess is COMPLETELY WRONG on the issue, as you'll see from the first paragraph alone. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Out of interest Phili - what did you do your PhD in? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Michael Hess - I'm sure they've denied it, and of course they have, but more importantly, the article apparently implies a widespread organized conspiracy, on the basis of a limited number of reports. It's that which is reckless, misleading and contemptible. However, the headline encapsulates the misguided and wrongheaded reaction...the problem is between the Israeli government, AND A NEWSPAPER - NOT SWEDEN AS A COUNTRY. I was struck when reading the thread about the Israeli academic supporting divestment from Israel that he was doing exactly the same thing as the idiots who support campaigning against IKEA - a totally innocent party, targetted on the basis of nationality! Undoubtedly the editor of the newspaper has been reckless in their imprecision, but it is not for the Swedish government to censure them, nor should people judge Sweden as a country. In democracies you disprove the allegations and take legal action if possible as retribution. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I appreciate that there has been a misunderstanding...looking back I could have used more proper nouns, but certainly the end of the first paragraph shows I'm comparing how JTA have worded it compared to the words used by the IDF and the diplomatic services - in other words, siding with the IDF's more cautious account. Certainly, as we also agree, an unfortunate accident, which is why I think it won't damage governmental cooperation on the border. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 JTA's normally quite free of adverts like the one above... It's also a bit insulting to the religious significance of Western Wall prayers when US politicians use it as PR, and when somebody tries to sell an iPhone app of it! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Then Will you're firstly saying that the government is hiring Arab diplomats who are against Israel's interests. That's clearly false - there's no motive for the govt to do that. Instead they can hire the most integrated Israeli Arabs, who are clearly the diplomats who have an advantage in dealing with Arab states. For example, Israel sends US-Israelis to America; America sends a typically Jewish envoy to Israel. I don't think anybody disputes that it helps relations if a diplomat is i) fighting on your side, and ii) has some link to the people they're working with. Secondly you're not even defending the ultra-Jewish, who like you, believe themselves to be the ones who have accurately interpreted the Torah. Now as you know, I'm far from a supporter of ultra-Orthodox groups, but many are vehement defenders of Israel, and are part of both the religion and the state, whether we agree with them or not. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's yet another ridiculous proposal, which is clearly posturing, and will certainly never come to pass. Firstly, the ultra-Orthodox often have their own religious reasons for not participating in army service, so to preclude them from diplomatic service would be quite an insult to Jewish unity (I know - what Jewish unity people always say to me). Secondly, nobody will accept effectively procluding Israeli-Arabs from Diplomatic service. On a practical level, they're the most valuable diplomatic resource to Israel, given the challenges we face, and given that they've been checked out and given the position, they're clearly working on behalf of Israel - either that or you think public bodies are giving diplomatic jobs to people working against Israel's interests. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Atfirst I assumed he was calling for an academic boycott, which I consider to be outrageous. Academics are generally the more progressive, considered members of society. No boycott of anywhere should ever target those who aren't directly connected to the perceived grievance, and to do so is outright immoral. It's punishment of people on the basis of nationality. There's an interesting parallel with the Sweden situation, where a newspaper should be targetted, but the Swedish government, people, and most laughably, IKEA, should definitely not be. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I didn't say the IDF were intentionally lying. I said that the IDF spokeswoman had made an announcement very soon after the event, which was full of the appropriate caveats, about what "may", or is "believed" to have happened. What I said was that JTA wasn't reporting the caveats in the way Ma'ariv and Haaretz were. Secondly, I didn't claim inside information. I clearly spoke of the IDF's account, and how they'd included the caveats, as well as saying what does and doesn't sound probable, on the basis of the IDF and diplomatic response. In other words, I was doing THE OPPOSITE of claiming inside information. I was working directly from the official position, I think more accurately than the JTA wording does. Finally, I didn't say anything about it being anything other than an accident - I specifically said IT WAS CLEARLY "a deeply unfortunate accident". What I was disputing was whether the Egyptian policeman approached the soldiers, failed to identify himself, and then was the first to cock his gun. That doesn't determine whether it was an accident or not - again, I very clearly said that it was. In other words, you've misinterpreted my post quite a bit there. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So two politicians get great coverage, for praying that there would be no hurricanes? I'm sure their PR bods are grinning today...I think a reasonable disclaimer on the end of such PR puffs should be "other people also didn't want hurricanes in Florida".. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The position of Yemeni Jews is a precarious one, and the murder referenced in the article was a disturbing case. While I'm not generally in favor of capital punishment, in this case there was no dispute over the man's guilt, and it's good that he was suitably 'dispatched'. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I've just stumbled upon this thread, and it's amazing how the provably, and very obviously false claims of 'death panels', or encouraging euthanasia are repeated as if they are anything other than overt lies...it's laughable really, but says a lot about the level of political discourse. The other entirely contemptible position is that American Jews are "traitors", "self-hating Jews", etc. That on it's own I find amazingly unpleasant, and entirely unJewish (ironically enough)... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EVAN ZUESSE:- Firstly, you seem to be rather annoyed that I quite comprehensively demolished your arguments. I accept your implicit apology for having claiming I had ignored attacks from Pals on settlers, when in fact I had clearly condemned them in my only two previous posts on the thread...implicit as you haven't had the decency to acknowledge your mistake, but have merely omitted it... Now I'll again go through the many points you're arguing against, which are mainly unrelated to what I said. I replied very politely first time around, but it's now clear that your intentions are entirely dishonest in distorting what was actually said, I'll try to be brief so as not to waste my time discussing what you wrongly claim I have said:- 1) What I actually said was "To claim that the Pals are worse to the settlers than the settlers are to the local Pals is rather controversial and highly contestable. There isn’t really a great difference in the continual exchanges between the groups. " I think many people would agree that in the many local skirmishes between the Pals around settlements, and the settlers, that there is a tit-for-tat exchange of unacceptable attacks, which even posters who are completely in favor of settlements and settlers find contemptible. 2) You're talking about Hamas and Fatah terrorist attacks. I specifically referred to the local, low-level (but nonetheless violent) attacks between settlers and the local Pal population...you've clearly misread the article, and the other posts, all of which are about such attacks, rather than the larger-scale terrorist networks. 3) Again, I said nothing of organized terrorist groups, what schools are named, incitement etc...none of which has been brought up in the article, or the earlier posts... 4) Nor did I say anything about access to Holy sites - again irrelevant... 5) "the vast majority of so-called settlers are kind, good and peaceable people, very critical of terrorism from no matter what group" Good, and that isn't really disputed. The article and posts are about the faction that have participated in the exchange of attacks, as in the article. It's good that you say other settlers condemn such actions, as you yourself have been rather ambivalent about it, given that you're suggesting it was merely a response, whereas Pal actions are attacks. 6) " They very definitely include Orthodox Jews, too, Ari" Again, this doesn't relate to any point made by me, or any other poster, as we've all been talking about settlers generally, and the minority who commit crimes. I don't know if you're getting confused with another thread. Overall then, you haven't really read my posts - there were plenty of points in my last post which have gone unanswered, and points and issues I've never made have been raised instead! However, it appears that you agree with the consensus that it is unfortunate when criminal proceedings are dropped due to lack of community cooperation - I'm not really interested in whether you meant what you said implying that people should get more angry when a Pal commits the attack than when a settler does it - the consensus seems to be that morality requires us to condemn the crime, rather than on the basis of nationality. As I've said, I rather wish you were capable of acknowledging why you initially chose to smear me by repeatedly saying that I had dismissed Pal attacks, when I had condemned them in BOTH of my posts on the thread. Some confusion with somebody else perhaps? When you clearly couldn't support the claim, it would have been more decent to actually recognize the fact, rather than trying to quietly drop it... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Incidentally, the account at the end of this article was the one more tentatively given by the IDF spokeswoman at the time, who included terms like he was "believed" to have been challenged, and "believed" to have cocked his gun, after the IDF troops had squared up to him while he was on the Egyptian side. In other words there is quite an effort to distort the reported facts of the situation, despite the fact that the actions of the IDF and diplomatic services have in no way suggested that it was right to fire, or that normal procedures or best practice were followed. Essentially it was a deeply unfortunate accident. I'm sure diplomacy will prevail, as usually happens in such cases, and that the crucial cooperation on the Egyptian border will continue. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Bitin Dawg:- "Unarmed beseiged people"? Really? It would be less unacceptable to describe it as a disregard for civilian life, or oppression WHILE FIGHTING ARMED MILITANTS from Hamas. I also strongly disagree on this article being anything to do with Cast Lead. It's a newspaper reporting allegations - in my opinion recklessly and irresponsibly - that a small number of reported incidents are part of a larger trend for actual organ smuggling. I'm sure the claim of such an overarching conspiracy will be shown to be worthless. Anyway, those who've attacked Sweden as a country, or are boycotting IKEA (!) are guilty of some of the most ridiculous jingoism and xenophobia - it's like when some muslims boycotted Danish products after the Mohammed cartoon fiasco. The incidents were raised by A Swedish newspaper...not THE Swedish government, or the Swedish people. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MATTHEW SHCUTZ:- I have to say I'm rather puzzled by some of your claims - several of which are very clearly provably false. I don't mean to cast aspersions if you do not, but can I just ask if you have any professional connection to healthcare? I'm sure you're not a paid blogger (this isn't exactly where they would post, nor would they post such long messages), but I was wondering if you had some connection that might color your judgement on this. 1) You said that " If a treatment costs more than $22,000 to extend life 6 months, it will not be covered. "...the article you cite doesn't seem to say that, or at least I can't find it. In fact it speaks of providing a wide range of end-of-life care, and looks completely indistinguishable from the academic articles aimed at private providers. Could you direct me to where it says about end of life care being refused on grounds of cost? Also, I'd asked why, if that were happening such countries still get much higher ratings for their healthcare, and have so many better health outcomes. If even a few percent of the population were being denied end of life care, it would lower life expectancy, whereas as I pointed out above, ours is much worse than comparable countries. 2) "In the US we treat newborn infants who are in distress. In nations with socialized systems they do not"..."In socialized systems these children are untreated and they all die." That's CLEARLY in no way true, and wasn't surprised when I couldn't find evidence to back it up. You're really saying that the US is the only developed country where they try to save newborns in distress, or do so SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than other countries? That's actually provably false, and very clearly so. You say that this lowers the US' life expectancy, while in other countries it raises their child mortality instead. Well our child mortality rates are also appalling:- Infant mortality per 1,000 live births: US - 6.7; UK - 4.8; France - 3.8; Singapore - 2.1 So that clearly shows that as both our life expectancy AND our child mortality are much worse, that it's untrue to say that it's because other developed countries try to save fewer newborns. 3) Not sure I follow, as it's a little ambiguous. Are you saying you were seen within 30 mins in the US; your daughter 3 hours in Canada? Again, I find that remarkable, as when I lived in the US I had much longer waits than 30 mins. The mean average is 4hrs 5mins (2006 - ref below)...I can only assume that the reason is that ER rooms work on a triage system, so people are often seen according to need. Regardless, ER waits are yet another indicator taken into account in the national healthcare assessments in which the US does so badly. 4) [In the UK] "In order to get around the statute people are warehoused in ambulances. actual waits typically are 6 to 8 hours. " Again, that's provably false. Did you perhaps mean you'd read of A COUPLE OF CASES where people waited 6-8 hours? Mean average A&E;waiting time:- US - 4hrs 8mins (2006) UK - under 2% wait over 4 hours. http://allnurses.com/nursing-news/survey-average-er-309545.html 5)"It took her 7 months to get an appointment to get an MRI. In the states waiting more than a few days is unheard of. " If it took 7 months in Canada, then can I assume your family doctor or the consultant hadn't referred her? It certainly wasn't 7 months on a waiting list. I don't think there are any procedures available in the US within days, which routinely take seven months in Canada. That's just plain incorrect. The below American Medical Student article discusses how misinformation about Canadian waiting times is used by the US private healthcare industry, and it clarifes that "The median wait time for selected non-emergency diagnostic tests (CT, MRI, or angiography) was 3.0 weeks" http://www.amsa.org/studytours/WaitingTimes_primer.pdf That's not to say that the US' waiting times for non-emergency procedures aren't some of the shortest in the world. As the AMS Journal says, this applies primarily to those with the best insurance, and is partly due to the lower demand placed on the system per capita as a result of certain procedures being unavailable to much of the population. 6) The article above also says that US Private Healthcare PR uses the claim of Canadians either being sent, or going in large numbers for healthcare in the US, and finds this to be another claim which doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny. Katz et al (2002) found that only 0.23% of the healthcare on Canadians from border states was performed in the US, and THAT THIS INCLUDED those working, travelling, or living in the US. And these were border states. ANYWAY - PHEW! Clearly the full single-payer system is not on the table for the US, so it's a bit of an inaccurate comparison, but what the above DOES show is the extent to which very clearly false scare stories can spread. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Here's a rather good comment piece from the Times of London. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6807089.ece Incidentally - Stuart - I think the two proposed alternatives were that Libya was the sponsor and perpetrator, their motive being the US attacks on Libya shortly before which killed Gadhaffi's daughter. The other proposed scenario was that it was Iran acting through a well-known Syrian terrorist cell operating from Frankfurt, who had previously attempted to bomb airliners in the same way, using the same technology (information the defense were not allowed to bring up in the initial trial, nor were they told what kind of device was used). Iran's motive was supposedly the US attack that killed about 300 Iranians when a passenger plane was shot down. In the latter scenario it's proposed that Syria and Iran were too politically valuable in the lead up to the first Iraq war to cut off relations with them. I agree with you that Iran working through Libya would have been unlikely, but it's not something that's been proposed. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Those Thai, Vietnamese and Bangladeshi 9yos had better get stitching...I'm gonna need some winter sweaters. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 All very positive. I have no doubt that Bibi and Lieberman will have plans to bring down negotiations should they not get what they want, so having the most hardline leaders in power at the time of negotiations should be a reassurance to the anti-negotiation groups. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EU WEI CHOI:- Er...I posted twice out of about 25-30 posts! Are there any stories on JTA where you don't come out with your poorly thought through, assh*le aggression? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wow - Leland I fully agree with you. Being a bit more sensible means that we blame the newspaper rather than the government or people of an entire country, and I've found the rush to xenophobia from some JTA posters to be an embarrassment. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EVAN ZUESSE:- After scanning through most of your post, a few points:- 1) Glad you agree on the general point 2) Personal antipathy between individuals legally doesn't mean that a case would be thrown out due to lack of cooperation, so that's clearly not an issue. At most it would lessen the punishment. 3) The case itself is far from unusual in the continual skirmishes between settlers and Pals - I assume you mean that the case being DISMISSED in this way is unusal, which I also consider to be incorrect. 4) To claim that the Pals are worse to the settlers than the settlers are to the local Pals is rather controversial and highly contestable. There isn't really a great difference in the continual exchanges between the groups. Their collective behavior is not comparable to that of Israelis generally. 5) If you've missed my points against Pal attacks then you've not read even this thread, never mind any of my posts. In my first I said "I expect that the next time a group of Pal thugs does the same thing to settlers, that the investigation will be dropped unless the Pals come forward with evidence! "...in my second I agreed with Cheryl's point that it is the product of brutal tit-for-tat attacks from the Pals and the settlers, and said "people should condemn an action regardless of who does it". It seems that you've read neither of my points on this thread, or any of my other, or more probably are purposefully making a disingenuous, and dishonest claim, despite the fact that you agree with what I said! That's rather disappointing. 6) Why would anybody be MORE outraged when Pals kill a settler than when settlers kill a Pal? The point I made, and you agreed with was that a crime is contemptible regardless of who commits it, and that bias on the basis of religion or race has no place in Israel - which you agreed with, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The below refers to the long-term investigation by an investigative journalist, Paul Foot, who examined many of the claims of Al-Megrahi being a political pawn and scapegoat, while the Syrians and their Iranian financiers went free. It refers to the uncontested fact that the two main witnesses were paid considerable amounts by the CIA; one had a CIA file which described him as 'unreliable'; and that there was a break-in to Heathrow airport prior to the bombing, which is when the bomb was likely to have been put aboard. The baggage handlers also said 2 additional bags were there at Heathrow (i.e. not from Megrahi). None of that info was allowed to be used in the original trial or appeal. LIBYAN TAKEAWAY Earlier this year the Eye predicted that the Scottish courts would hear only a small part of the appeal of Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi before it would be abandoned and he would return to Libya to die with his family. Meghari’s release was on the cards for some time. That was ensured by Jack Straw, the justice minister, sticking up two fingers at parliament’s human rights committee and rushing through the prisoner transfer deal with our new best friend, Muammar Gaddafi. After all, the deal suited all the main players, cementing relations with Libya as well as halting an appeal that threatened to prove a major embarrassment to both the UK and US governments. News last week that Megrahi was to be returned on ‘compassionate grounds’, because he was dying of cancer, briefly raised hopes that his appeal could continue in his absence. But that was never going to be allowed to happen, and Megrahi, who had always said he would never return to Libya until his name was cleared, duly dropped his appeal. IN THE PAY OF THE CIA The casualty is justice and the truth about the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, which claimed 270 victims. For as readers of the Eye’s special report by Paul Foot in 2001 are well aware, Megrahi’s trial was a travesty. There were the testimonies of two witnesses who were paid huge sums by the CIA – one a notorious liar and paid informer, Abdul Giaka, who first put Megrahi in the frame; the other the Maltese shopkeeper who identified him as the man who bought clothes said to have been packed round the bomb. He had been shown photographs of Megrahi. Some forensic evidence appeared to have been tampered with and much evidence withheld – including the fact that there had been a serious breach in security in Heathrow at the Pan Am baggage area in the early hours of 21 December 1988, the day of the bombing. A padlock on the door had been professionally cut and the area open to intruders. Coupled with the testimony of baggage handlers about two extra cases going on board – one matching the description of the bag said to have carried the bomb – this would have featured heavily in Megrahi’s appeal. THE SYRIAN CONNECTION And then, of course, there were the similarities to the modus operandi of a Syrian-backed terrorist cell operating out of Frankfurt, including altitude-sensitive timers, which the judges did not allow Megrahi’s defence team to raise at trial. Because the appeal in Edinburgh has been dogged by delay, none of these troubling issues have been aired. And now, short of the public inquiry demanded by the families of the victims, they never will be. Allowing the only man convicted of the bombing to be returned to Libya has produced howls of outrage on both sides of the Atlantic. (That is, apart from the rare voices of the UN observer at the trial and some of the British victims’ families, who have studied every aspect of the case and believe there has been a miscarriage of justice.) That outrage would be better focused on the governments and justice systems that have ensured we have all been denied the full truth about Lockerbie. http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=in_the_back& 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It makes me laugh that so many people have knee-jerk opposition to peace talks, but no alternative end-game to improve the national security of Israel...I think those who don't live in Israel find it easier to see it in black and white, action movie terms. Anyway, there is considerable optimism about some small movements and developments over the coming years. Clearly the world's biggest territorial conflict will not be sorted for several decades, but the only option which has been recognized by all of Israel's leaders throughout history has been resolving issues one at a time, and getting on the right path. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Blackie - firstly anti-semitic incidents have shot up post Cast Lead, but in what circumstances are you saying that young people should learn to "stand up for themselves (with a fist as an absolute last resort)"? It's a very strong, modern Jewish community, who are as law abiding as they come...there isn't really any need or benefit from potential vigilantism. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 One thing that IS FICTION is that the BTS testimonies by Israeli soldiers were anonymous. Full details were available to the IDF hierarchy, provided the safety and employment rights of the whistleblowers was assured, which the IDF refused to do. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 David Schimmel:- "That’s how it began in England and is now the de facto the way many of such decisions are carried." The claim that there is widespread rationing in the UK system, or that appropriate care is ever refused on grounds of cost is provably false, and is one of the overt lies which the Pharma PR and GOP have been keen to spread. Firstly all of the drugs available in the US private system are available from private insurance in the UK (usually at a lower cost), which a reasonable chunk of the population gets through their employer...there's no restriction on that. Secondly there aren't swathes of accepted, validated drugs the NHS refuses to buy, nor does it refuse life-extending treatment on the basis of cost - even in cases where the person is terminally ill. What the Institute of Clinical Excellence there does is to test drugs in the same way bodies in all countries do. That means that while private healthcare may be keen to have people pay through the nose for the latest untested 'miracle drug' to prolong their lives, the actual laboratory testing regularly shows such drugs to be worthless or even dangerous and damaging. It is only ever THESE that public healthcare often refuses to buy - as there are clinically and scientifically provably SUPERIOR established drugs available. It's a common Pharmaceutical company technique. Building up stories in the papers about how great a drug is, with the result that they can charge a fortune for it, and push for it to be bought in large quantities. Then when a public health bodies says the drug is useless, claim they're denying people care! PR has a field-day with these rumors. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Firstly, I'm clearly wholly against Novak - he was very right-wing, and a puppet of various right-wing political and lobbying groups. However, those of you who have posted above seem not to have read the extremely brief article. EU WEI CHOI and HAROLD I FOX:- The colleague says that this apparently happened AFTER THE CEASEFIRE - therefore not in war, and not in any way defendable. Incidentally, I don't think somebody like Novak's opinion would be fully dependent on one event, although it may be one of the major incidents in his life. The hysteria an bitter, often disingenuous or misguided attacks on the man are very unpleasant to see...I think he had terrible effects and supported causes I am wholly against, but he was certainly not an anti-semite. He was a man with a partly Jewish background who disagreed with the actions of Israel - it sounds like there was very little Judaism in his life in the first place. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EU WEI CHOI:- Yup - I'm really targetting the 'decision makers and shakers' right here...many of you struggle to contruct any kind of point. Equally, if I were on a payroll I wouldn't write such long, time-consuming paragraphs, Poindexter. CHERYL:- The the countless flaws in the case against him, from the start lead many of the investigative journalists and lawyers commenting on the case to speculate that justifying Libyan pariah status (which they deserved) was the reason for not releasing or allowing huge amounts of evidence. The political issue in relation to letting him out, is that now that SOME of the evidence has been forced out, and SOME is still withheld for unspecified reasons. The fact that a huge proportion of the better informed or involved commentators was that he would win his appeal would mean that the UK and US govts had been involved in a major miscarriage of justice - much too embarrassing and damaging. Why else do you suggest that he wasn't released and allowed to continue his legal challenge? It was a specific quid pro quo, rather than a standard legal reason. Gaddaffi became Bush and Blair's best bud as they tried to use him as an example to other pariah states. Having 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl:- "It’s an unfortunate incident, but what do you expect with tensions running as high as they are. Young Israeli teenagers bludgeoned to death by Palestinians, Palestinians invading homes and shooting families...but somehow the example is always made of the Israelis. I sympathize with these Palestinians who apparently were victims of pure aggression, but it happens both ways. " Indeed it does Cheryl, as I think all posters would agree. The thing is that people should condemn an action regardless of who does it, rather than trying to excuse it when settlers do it, and saying it's understandable because Pals do the same thing. That again, is Fundamental Attribution Error 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MATTHEW SCHUTZ:- 1) Firstly I asked about ANY form of FORCED euthanasia. You've answered about VOLUNTARY ASSISTED SUICIDE, which is a completely different thing, both morally and practically. Several countries have assisted suicide laws, but that's not what it has been suggested a public option would bring. In the UK, NICE determines which drugs are used on the basis of clinical testing and validity. It's incorrect to say that they refuse to fund at the level you cite - what's your source on that - could you send me a link? Also in the UK, people can purchase privately much more easily. In the case of life extension, out of 60m people I'm not aware of anybody being refused end of life care or any treatment. What you may be referring to is that new drugs have to be tested before being authorized, and the pharma industry often makes up trial data to push public demand for a drug. However, there haven't been legitimate, successful drugs held back on the testing schedule on the grounds of cost. The health insurance companies for the private options also have the same panels, determining which drugs are used! Thing have to best tested to ensure that they work and are safe. 2) LIFE EXPECTANCY The considerably higher number of deaths through misadventure is still a minute proportion of the total population, and it doesn't bridge the large gap in life-expectancy. For example, homocide is under 0.7% of all fatalities, and RTAs under 1.1% (NATURE; Harris,A; Volume 453; page 1178; 26 June 2008). The fact that even with this taken into account, the US' life expectancy is much worse than other developed countries, despite spending twice as much per person as their nearest competitors. It's not just life-expectancy. A great many other major healthcare indicators are worse...e.g. :- Infant mortality per 1,000 live births: US - 6.7; UK - 4.8; France - 3.8; Singapore - 2.1 3) "The current end of life counseling deals with things like living wills and medical directives and the like. There are firm statutory guidlines as to what the counseling is to be about. " So are the new ones! If you're suspicious of the point of any commission being to "contain costs", I would yet again ask you to point to any of the other developed countries where this genuinely, regularly leads to lower health outcomes! The facts are that unbridled, poorly regulated insurance isn't working, hence the system that Glenn Beck condemned so fully right up to about 6 months ago. It's inefficient, in that we pay over twice what most comparably wealthy countries (e.g. the Scandanavians being the best example) and have the worst health outcomes. Spend per capita:- US - $7,290; France - $3,601 UK - $2,992; Singapore - $1,228 That said - I appreciate the level of debate - Good to see on these pages! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will Edwards 08/20/09 01:24 PM It doesn’t surprise me at all Ari H that you would defend these liars and scoundrels. ------------------------------------------- And Will, it doesn't surprise me at all Will Edwards that you have clearly failed to read a post before attacking. Here's what I've ACTUALLY said:- ___________________________ FIRST article about the story I said that I thought it was overwhelmingly likely to be untrue...I said it was probably taking old, isolated incidents and rumors and knitting them together into a conspiracy, and also that we would have to wait and see if any evidence came out, but that I thought that unlikely. SECOND post on the issue, I attacked "xenophobic generalizations", such as that Sweden was an anti-semitic country with low standards of journalism. I pointed out that there was some hysteria here, and that one tacky newspaper printing something doesn't mean a whole country is anti-semitic - that's the approach Islamists took against Denmark after the Mohammed cartoons, and it's a ridiculous one. THIRD post, I said again " I assume that the initial report took isolated incidents, and knitted them into a conspiracy, so I assume that it will be shown that there is no conspiracy."..."What IS important is that the Israeli government contest the claims WITH THE NEWSPAPER...this article wasn’t printed by the Swedish govt, nor by the Swedish people, but by a newspaper" ___________________________ So in other words Will, I repeatedly said that the story was overwhelmingly likely to be untrue. What I assume you've misinterpreted for whatever reason is that I refused to be drawn into a hypocritical and hysterical mob mentality of calling Sweden an anti-semitic country, or expecting a government to condemn or punish a media outlet. This is between the Israeli govt, and the tabloid newspaper. BTW - Apology accepted. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I have just posted the below on another thread, as even for posters on this site, it's simply TOO stupid - really humorously so...it says a lot about the intelligence and morality [sic] of some posters:- "UNBELIEVEABLE!!! CHERYL - COME QUICK! I just noticed that you made your hypocrisy more than apparent yourself! On another thread JUST FOUR MINUTES after you posted angrily about Tom suggesting you follow the actions of Dudu Topaz, you praised somebody else for doing the same thing! LOL! YOU MASSIVE HYPOCRITE! " [You can see the emails above] So somebody suggesting Cheryl commit suicide was shockingly immoral, with even Blackie (somebody else who regularly wishes death on those who oppose him/her/it) getting angry about it, but JUST FOUR MINUTES LATER, Cheryl was posting in support of an even more disgusting post!!! I think the difference between us Cheryl, is that when Tom recommended that you commit suicide, I attacked him despite finding your views wholly abhorrant to the principles of Judaism (while also pointing out that you do the same thing)...you recognize what that was Cheryl? That's what THE OPPOSITE of hypocrisy looks like. LOL!....It's really funny when it's that blatant. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 UNBELIEVEABLE!!! CHERYL - COME QUICK! I just noticed that you made your hypocrisy more than apparent yourself! On another thread JUST FOUR MINUTES after you posted angrily about Tom suggesting you follow the actions of Dudu Topaz, you praised somebody else for doing the same thing! LOL! YOU MASSIVE HYPOCRITE! The mentally unhinged Steve Adams posted to somebody: "...Your obsession with dung is your dream to be just like Shicklegruber, lying on the bed while Eva Braun defecates on you. You are one sick POS, TD. Why don’t you just end it the way Shicklegruber did and do us all a favor. " To which you gleefully posted:- "Thank you Steve Adams, you really made my evening! That’s hilarious!! (I know you weren’t trying to be funny - but the imagery is just too vivid) " http://jta.org/news/article/2009/08/19/1007344/us-queries-israel-on-arab-american-entry/CP3 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 What a surprise!!! I expect that the next time a group of Pal thugs does the same thing to settlers, that the investigation will be dropped unless the Pals come forward with evidence! The blatant preferential treatment the settlers get again and again (presumably in no way related to their ability to embarass the govt) is quite a threat to justice in this state. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - that such compassion releases are extremely rare - particularly in serious or high-profile cases is good proof that he wasn't released for reasons of compassion, but for political reasons. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Incidentally - there's an omnipresent recognized bias called Fundamental Attribution Error. It means that if you like a group, then when they do something wrong you excuse them, ignore it, or say they were only responding to a situation. If you don't like a group, and they do the same thing, then you immediately and wrongly assume that they are innately bad people. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - a bit logically flawed there. I think what you mean is that you agree with the 40% of Israelis. If you think the Israelis as a group are "100% correct", then you're 60% sure that he doesn't favor Pals! Your final sentence also doesn't really make sense. It rather reflects the human instincts and the political nature which means all groups believe that the system is in some way against them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 12 % of Israelis think he favors them - 40% that he favors Pals 7% of Pals think he favors them - 64% that he favors Israel What does this tell you? People ALWAYS feel hard-done by. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's certainly a travesty of justice. As a great many of the families of the deceased have been raising again this week, the overhwelming evidence suggests it was committed by a Syrian or Iranian terrorist cell operating from Germany. Even since the inital conviction, the major holes and inconsistencies in the case have been clear, and given the emergence of a raft of new evidence, and the pressure on the UK govt to release the remaining evidence which they have withheld on unspecified grounds of national security, a successful appeal was considered to be overwhelmingly likely by most of the investigative journalists I've seen. In other words, a man handed over by Libya as a scapegoat was widely predicted to be found innocent - probably posthumously given how long these things can be drawn out - causing massive embarrassment to the govts of the UK, US and Libya, as well as upsetting relations with the REAL funders of the attack - the Iran / Syria nexus. As a result, he gets offered his last few months at home with his family SO LONG AS he drops his appeal, thus saving face all round! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, the ease with which many blatant lies which have been spread about the general public has been shocking and disturbing. It's said terrible things about how well informed the general public is, and the level of basic political engagement in the US. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- Your position doesn't make sense. You called him a "Little African dictator", and now say "And virtually every head of an African nation IS a dictator. And Obama clearly has it in the blood"... Then you claim it's not a racial thing...garbage! You're overtly racially motivated in many of your posts on a daily basis! Also, you'll see that I attacked Tom for suggesting that you commit suicide, which I consider to be out of order...every bit as much as it is when YOU and BLACKIE do the same - ALL THE TIME! You two are hysterical! To see the two playground bullies blustering about how appaling it is that somebody has said to you something you both say to other people (you've both repeatedly joked about Jews you disagree with dying or being killed, and gloried in the deaths of others). Subtle hypocrisy is sad. Blatant, fullblown, blowhard hypocrisy can be kinda funny! I suggest if you think Toms' post was out of order, (which is was) that you consider your own attacks sometime! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The misconceptions and outright lies about healthcare reform are varied and ridiculous. They've become a bit of an international laughing stock. 1) It's bad enough that over half of people think there will be some element of 'forced euthanasia' (!) despite the fact that that doesn't happen anywhere in the world, and despite the fact that even where there is a WHOLLY single-payer healthcare system, they still manage to have much higher life-expectancies than we do! 2) Over half of people think the 'Death Panel' section is new - when we of course know it was brought in under the Reps, and was rightly broadly supported, as it allows for planning of palliative care. 3) Over half of people think it will mean more cover for Illegal - in fact there are no changes proposed on that front at all. Providing better, more efficient healthcare and improving the wealth and quality of people's lives is very much an issue the principles of Judaism would support. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE:- Oh, my little embittered attack-dog...JQP and I were just getting into looking at analysing the competing political pressures on each of the parties involved, and what is required to get the best outcome for Israel...I guess that was too complex for you. Your suggestion is that the position of Israel has no effect on Pal politics, or vice-versa, which is ridiculous and provably false. On the issue of Shalit...again it's childish personal attacks for you to attack us for not mentioning a different story - Cheryl, Will, and various other people who have read the thread have also not mentioned it. Perhaps we got distracted by all making rather more insightful point on the article itself, rather than being told we should mention something that is so inane as to be taken as read. You want me to say it anyway? Okay, well I hope that Cheryl, Will, and JQP don't mind me talking on their behalf in saying that obviously we would all like Gilad Shalit to be released, and agree with your insightful rhetorical question - "What about his release?" However, I notice in your post relating to Hamas you didn't think about mentioning Sderot...would you find it inappropriate to do so, or do you just not care about another, vaguely related issue??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- Again the claim that it is a worse system is undermined by the fact that all developed countries have more of a public element than us, and have better health outcomes - and for much, much less money. E.g. The NHS which has been wrongly maligned by the GOP (not worked out too well) doesn't cut any of the services in that way, and gets much better outcomes for a fraction of the price. The French system has also been attacked, but again performs better than ours:- Health Expenditure per capita US - $7,290 France - $3,601 UK - $2,992 Life Expectancy US - 78 France - 81 UK - 79 Infant mortality per 1,000 live births US - 6.7 France - 3.8 UK - 4.8 Therefore claiming that spending much less directly, rather than having a system with such massive waste, so the govt is paying INDIRECTLY, and for much worse healthcare doesn't follow. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 TOM - difficult as this is for me, I have to object to your post...bitterly wishing death on people is more what Cheryl does on a daily basis - don't fall to that level. CHERYL - typically your point suggesting Obama to be bigoted against Jews is wholly undermined as you can't manage to express it in anything other than racial terms, calling him a "little African dictator"... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 JQP - I think I'd describe it differently. I agree that Bibi (and to be fair, previous leaders') needs to be seen as being aggressive have meant that they have publically attacked and weakened Fatah, and Abbas in particular...those who are against negotiations in particular have used this as a way of lessening the chances of peace. I also agree on Fatah appearing weak to the electorate, but we also underestimate the extent to which Hamas is a bit of a laughing stock too...their strength is limited to the people of Gaza, who low level thugs can intimidate much more than Fatah do. Finally, the Fatah convention saw some of those most associated with corruption thrown out, and (still often unpleasant) younger characters brought in, more accepting of negotiation with, and eventual recognition of Israel, so I don't think it's all bad on that front. Bibi's policies have also included (after clear international pressure) many measures which Fatah can hold up as progress - the lifting of some restrictions; the security being handed over in certain towns, etc. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PHILI ALAWAL:- So you love your nationally run health coverage, but don't think that people should have nationally run health coverage...EH?!? Also, I see you believe in the famous 'DEATH PANELS'...(you mention it shortly after the bit about how Dems have an IQ of zero)... Given that all developed countries have more nationalized healthcare than the US (to a greater or lesser extent), would you care to explain:- 1) Which country anywhere has any form of forced euthanasia 2) Why they all have better life expectancies, despite the death panels 3) Whether you were against death panels when they were first introduced by Reps? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Anyway - on the issue of the article, I assume that the initial report took isolated incidents, and knitted them into a conspiracy, so I assume that it will be shown that there is no conspiracy. However, with regard to the Swedish national position - they're quite right to refuse to condemn a newspaper. It's like when some US paper prints a story about, say, human rights in China or Saudi Arabia, and their envoy then comes and calls for the govt to attack the newspaper...totally unacceptable. What IS important is that the Israeli government contest the claims WITH THE NEWSPAPER...this article wasn't printed by the Swedish govt, nor by the Swedish people, but by a newspaper...trying to get the government involved before the validity of the claims has been established one way or the other is pointless. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MICHAEL KUHN:- "Why should anyone believe an article written in Sweden? The press in that country combines the worst aspects of all the trashiest newspapers in the U.S. and Europe (inventing sources, paying for quotes, stalking private people with cameras, and photographing reenactments of an event rather than the event itself). " Er...what are you basing this on? Regardless of this report, the Swedish media are notoriously rigorous in relation to other countries - especially news reporting in the US. Do you have any interest in Sweden? Lived there or anything? I ask as to make such xenophobic generalizations as "Why should anyone believe an article written in Sweden" It sounds a little like you've read this article, and formed a rather errant opinon on the quality of the media from a whole country - to do so about the newspaper itself would even be inappropriate. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think the issue regarding the cost of UHC is actually a point in favor of it. Currently the US pays WAY more than anybody else per head for healthcare which is ranked 37th in the world. Their life expectancy is appalling compared to virtually all other developed countries, and the incidence of medical problems is worse than virtually all other developed countries. The money for this already costs the federal govt - 22% of GNP goes on healthcare, and that's money which would otherwise be flowing around the economy for other good, or would be paying higher tax, so the belief that healthcare now is actually CHEAPER is certainly incorrect. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Joel - I broadly agree on the positives of the wall for the forseeable future, but equally I don't think many advocates of the wall could support the sections which openly crossed into private Palestinian territory. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wow - a remarkable end to a remarkable story. What's unfortunate is that there may have been some oversight which meant that he managed to escape paying for his crimes. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I really can't believe people are pulling out the word 'apostate'... Rather than the normal, broadly mature, moral stance on people dying ("I disagreed with him, but may he rest in peace") many of the posters are talking like the most extremist tribal Islamists. Some people clearly don't agree with freedom of choice, as when there are various issues we all disagreed with Novak on (he was a hard man to completely like) several of you are ranting about how he converted! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- "How sad that you have to comb the internet to find these tidbits, whereas accusations of Israeli “organ harvesting” is rife throughout the web. For these simple reasons, Israel would do well to ignore the rest of the world - politically, militarily, and otherwise. " The latter comment fits in well with your overtly racist view of the world, and to an extent, I agree with your latter policy, even though it is the one which has brought devastation to countless countries, such as China, which went from world superpower to backwater when it became insular in the 1500s, and is only now recovering. For example, I think that Israel shouldn't pay too much attention to the very small minority of US, East Coast, overtly racist Jews who know exactly what Israel SHOULD do from a long distance... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's not really GOOD news...we want Hamas to be as bad as possible! Fatah have made some positive moves which would attract the middle-ground...this is Hamas PR, every bit as much as it's PR when we or anybody else releases prisoners... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think we all sometimes disagree with the JTA party line, as people do with any news provider, but if you seriously think it's too left-wing, then I suggest you go somewhere else....do the KKK have a website? Artistic man objects to security fence is not more newsworthy than my dinner. Plenty of people do, and I'm uncomfortable with it myself, but I think it's justified in the coming years (sections on private Pal land excluded) and will continue for a few years... Being against it isn't reason to call somebody like Waters (my least favorite member of 'the Floyd') anti-semitic... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- "Obama, go back to Kenya. It’s obvious you’re an African dictator beneath the monkey suit. What a little fascist you truly are, telling Israel who they should or shouldn’t screen for entry to their country. Not only are your comments typically deluded and racist (the Kenya issue - really? You're a birther? Actually, that doesn't surprise me), but also hypocritical. It's always best when going on an overtly racist rant against a democratically elected politician not to call THEM fascist...it only draws attention to your own fascism. Finally, you also haven't read the story in any way. It isn't about WHO IS SCREENED, as I pointed out....it's about the rule on people only being allowed to EITHER visit Palestinian territories or green-line Israel, and not to move between the two...maybe you should read before posting...it can make people look a little stupid...trust me... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The censorship is wrong headed and foolish and I'm completely against it. However, what ,made me split my sides was this quote:- "No matter how offensive any publication may be, intimidation must never be viewed as an acceptable means of responding to published ideas." Unbelievable! A group whose position has been wholly against academics, even when their position is far from supporting terrorism, and who have used overt and personal intimidation tactics to destroy careers! They target individuals (including Jews) who don't teach a conventional, almost entirely pro-Israel narrative and set out on large-scale smear campaigns, and yet now are brave defenders of academic freedom!!! Such hypocrites! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The rules on only being able to visit either Pal territories OR Israel is a clear means of preventing any tourism in the Pal areas, and isn't a law which will last in any way. That said, it's important that a distinction is drawn between this rule, and normal security procedures, which are NOT disputed, and which allow, for example, Americans of a Palestinian background to be detained, as normal, for security checks at airports. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - I HAD read the article fully, and so knew that - not sure why you felt I hadn't. As as I directly quoted you, you said Cohen was “musical accompaniment to the New Jihad” - so you very clearly WERE accusing him of empathy with Jihad and terrorism - it's rather churlish of you to deny the clear implication you made above. And the reason WHY you called him the “musical accompaniment to the New Jihad”? Because, as I said, he may dare to entertain people of different races and religions... It's a really pretty pathetic approach to life...as I pointed out with the other flippant example I gave - that Starbucks sells coffee to Arabs, so we should bomb them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Despite it having scarcely made the news reports anywhere else, this is about the 15th-20th article on JTA about it! To take just one of the more ridiculous posts:- REZASANTORINI:- I lived in Ireland, and of course they are anti-Israel, given their history with the British, but they are most certainly not anti-semitic...I, and other Jews I know in Ireland would all agree that I experienced less anti-semitism there than even the US. In other words "their hate" as you call it is democratic political opposition rather than knee-jerk anti-semitism, which you can hardly disagree with. Equally Ireland as a country was not "oblivious to Hitler"...they were poor, and unable to enter the war, given the vulnerability of their geographical position. However, a huge number of the population still fought along with the British army, as anybody with a knowledge of WWII Allied forces would know. Sheesh - in two lines you managed to get so much wrong. The Irish are far from anti-semitic, while your unsupportable bigotry is clear! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I posted on the other Robert Novak thread:- " I’m the complete opposite of a fan of Robert Novak, but the gloating over his death is one of the most unedifying, UNJEWISH sights I could imagine...probably even more unjewish than you think Mr Novak was! Now let’s try to be a little more mature, and slightly less despicable. For my part, I disagreed with him on countless issues, but it’s nonetheless sad when anybody passes away...he was clearly successful in his field. " 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hannah - the legalities you speak of are that the Israeli Supreme Court doesn't recognize the authority of the international community exercized when the houses were built in 1950. That very clearly DOESN'T mean that fair policies have been followed, and I would be backed up on that by the legal systems of the entire Western world, and the opinions of even the vast majority of US Jews. Also, suggesting that they were illegal as they were built without a permit is also something the rest of the world disagree with you on. It's not even disputed that permits are not given to Arabs in E. Jerusalem, but are to Israeli Jews...that's overwhelmingly well documented. That's why the developed world is against the demolitions - and not because they're just crazy. For Regev to deny that it's part of the long-term political efforts to evict Arabs and put more Israeli Jews into E. Jerusalem, to ensure that it officially goes to Israel in any settlement is such a blatant lie that it's an embarrassment. Regardless, the rumors about the negotiations ongoing between Israel and the Arabs is that Jerusalem is very much on the table. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This sounds like the Rabbi organ-dealing has been hashed together with various isolated incidents over the years to make one big conspiracy. There's nothing in this JTA article, or a couple of accounts of it, on any evidence. Therefore I can only assume that that's exactly what they've done - taken isolated incidents and assumed it's widespread. Moreover, I think we're all gonna have to await the first translations coming through before we give it much credence. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm the complete opposite of a fan of Robert Novak, but the gloating over his death is one of the most unedifying, UNJEWISH sights I could imagine...probably even more unjewish than you think Mr Novak was! Now let's try to be a little more mature, and slightly less despicable. For my part, I disagreed with him on countless issues, but it's nonetheless sad when anybody passes away...he was clearly successful in his field. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Leonard Cohen is "musical accompaniment to the New Jihad"? A little harsh...all that was suggested TO him was that he play Nazareth...but then obviously any Jew who dares to entertain a racially, religiously mixed audience is clearly some kind of terrorist... And Starbucks sells coffees to muslims...so I say we bomb 'em... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ah - Tamar/Shaul/Ari/Lawrence/Pierre/'Mussa'...I'm surprised you didn't claim he was in the pay of the CIA or the KGB as you usually do... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 What a wonderful gesture that would be. There's massive demand here, and I'd love another shot at tickets. However, at his age I'm sure additional dates are logistically difficult...it'd be nice if he could do it though. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's been clear this is coming, both with the increase in settlement activity ('get 'em in quick) and the various 'Bibi is tough' PR stories. However, the position mooted here (still unofficial) would be rather a good one for Bibi if accepted. A 'moratorium' would mean that any negotiation or deal could be brought down essentially at will by Bibi and Lieberman, and this threat would be a good negotiating chip for them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Some of the ingratitude to the Allies is remarkable...it seems the Vatican has got their wish! Britiain was early into WWII, and along with Russia, the Resistance in France, and countless other countries. However, both Britain a bit, and the US (a lot) delayed entry for rather understandable reasons...Britain was still rearming after WWI and was preparing militarily; public opinion in the US was not favorable given that the war seemed distant and irrelevant, pre-Pearl Harbor. So the US delayed for a long time, but still entered the war and tipped the balance. I think any criticism of them is highly unreasonable, as they saved countless lives at the expense of their own, as did all of the other Allied countries. The Vatican's position during WWII was rather less honorable... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's a problem for Israeli Jews to assimilate the opinions of the diaspora into their world-view (as can be seen from the posts whenever such issues come up). The attitudes to Eastern European or US Jews are usually derogatory and dismissive, as if both groups are just crazy. The simple issue is that even US Jews overwhelmingly support greater pressure and a path change from Israel. The 'defense' if you could call it that is to say that 'they aren't real Jews', etc. etc... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 ARKADY - my little bundle of bitter bile and illogicality. I know that it says he "was asked to stop and ID himself" - I said that in MY post!!! As ever you don't read things before trying to find a point to attack. Must try harder. D- On the issue of whether the weapon was cocked, I also said in my post that this has been reported as what is 'believed' or 'may' have happened on other sites, with some prevarication even from the IDF Press spokesperson. I said in my post it may have happened, but it seems strange...I can only assume that in confusion both sides seemed to be squaring up to each other, which lead to this situation, which is very strange given the very close professional relationship in which the Egyptians and the IDF work together. What we both agree on, and as the IDF have said, it was a highly regrettable accident. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl:- The growth in the WB has of course come with the increasing lifting of restrictions on movement and business practices, such as exporting. I also seem to clearly remember you claiming that Pals were clearly an inferior people as their economy wasn't as good as Israel's! That's rather different to the suggestion that the increasing prosperity in the WB is evidence that Israel is a benevolent ruler. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmm...interesting interview... I find it disturbing the way the likes of Lieberman seem to have so little interest in Jewish unity. In the way that many people disparage and dismiss the views of Eastern European Jews, elements currently in government would gladly dismiss a large chunk of the diaspora from Western countries. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmmm...not sure what the point of this piece is...it sounds like a disingenuous piece of sniping between News outlets...or ratehr from JTA at Haaretz. Obviously Haaretz has mocked the Birther movement the way everybody else has, and presumably in this article spoke of the birthers as conspiracy theorists...in other words, there was no implication that the allegations were anything other than ridiculous. I know it's slow news season, but seriously, this article implying Haaretz. is ambivalent about the Birther movement is a bit of an insult to the readers' intelligence. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wow - a JTA Op-Ed with a Democratic slant! Anyway, the Limbaugh issue is a difficult one for the GOP. Their policy has always been to avoid having to denounce him, and I think that would be the wisest option. It is, however, a stick with which the Dems can beat them, and it's no surprise that politicians are always keen to avoid formalizing such shock-jocks' relationship with the party... The article suggests they will have to either embrace or denounce him....I disagree - I think that's a lose/lose...they'll keep him at arms length without ever denouncing him. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hold on...I think they mean 'Britain'...that's a bit of a sloppy error. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yet again, another 'story' which is actually PR puff, which would only be carried on the site during the news' silly season. We already knew the US and the Allies had a delayed reaction, but for the Vatican of all groups to be putting the boot into the countries which actually save Jews is farcical. This is not only old news, but wholly distorted news, designed to absolve the Vatican of it's failings in relation to the holocaust. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 David Evans:- While I disagree on your support for Uri Davis, and your position on causes of the conflict - which I consider one-sided when a more balanced view is preferable, I did indeed misread the article - it is Fatah and not Hamas. I stand corrected, and had been laboring under a misapprehension. On reflection, I think he could still represent the Palestinian people from outside of the political system, as a great many Israeli-Jews have done, and as an academic has a means to do so. That said, although I disagree with his action, it's clearly much less dramatic than I initially suggested. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Notably the likes of Haaretz, JPost etc. report the IDF Press Spokesperson's claims rather more tentatively - the Spokesperson themself didn't claim the things reported to be facts, but to be 'probably', which is quite telling...JTA often replicates the PR line on such issues. It appears that inexperienced reservists failed to identify a target fully before shooting - that it was a uniformed Egyptian policeman within Egypt. How he was asked to identify himself from distance is unclear. Contrary to the claim in the JTA article above, all the other accounts say that it was a regular Egyptian patrol. They also all talk of the 'possibility' or 'claims that the soldier MAY' have cocked his weapon before the incident - given that the Egyptian and Israeli forces work so closely on border patrol without issues that seems unusual, and we aren't sure whether that's correct. ...sounds quite transparently like PR's damage limitation, which is quite sensible after this regrettable accidental incident. I'm sure it won't become a major political issue, although improvements in communication may be necessary. Fortunately such incidents are very rare on the Egyptian border. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 David Evans:- My points against you were that your claims if Israeli injustices are pretty irrelevant, in that they can't justify this man joining a group which openly does the same things you accuse Israel of! It's clear hypocrisy. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Arkady:- "AriH is out with his a.. searchig finger again. Man loves the texture." As ever, your post is another mentally deficient ranting, unfathomable mess, with a random insult thrown in at the end. If you want to trade random childish insults, then it says a lot about the ret*rded old cretin you are that having failed to make any identifiable points in your few lines, and despite pretty certainly AGREEING with me on this issue, you still throw this crap in... Got any actual points to make on the issue? Now concentrate REALLY hard...I know you can do it... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 steve adams 08/16/09 08:31 PM Israel, this is about your worship of hate,death,and destruction. This is about the true nature of who you are, a thug and a control freak who thinks that his Jew god Jesus is going to forgive you of your deep rooted sin of hate. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah - I see...crazy apocalyptic cultish rants is just what you do... Incidentally, your quote doesn't support a claim of necrophilia, and that's even if you interpret it as literally sleeping with somebody in their grave. That's not really relevant anyway, as it's clearly metaphorical regardless...that explains why all of the scholars and commentators missed that one... Anyway - that's irrelevant...this thread is about an Israeli Jew representing Hamas. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Steve Adams...necrophilia? really? We were both posting against David Evans, but I think your post was rather too similar to his for comfort... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DAVID R EVANS:- That's a wholly irrelevant comparison. You're suggesting that the acts which lead to the foundation of Israel over 60 years ago somehow validate the position of Hamas, which is ridiculous. If you are opposed to terrorism, then you are opposed to both - one of which was over 60 years ago. Even if you argued, as Uri Davis apparently believes, that IDF actions in the RECENT past somehow justifies joining such a group as Hamas, it would be a farcically ridiculous position. You say "Israel was terrorizing and collectively punishing the people of Gaza for electing Hamas to power. " So you think it's okay for this guy to join a group that does the same? Hamas' clear tactics include attacking and terrorising civilians for political gain, which you somehow, inexplicably consider to be different to what you are accusing Israel of! Incidentally, the extent to which Hamas were freely 'elected' is hugely contentious (i.e. they weren't). You position is the definition of hypocrisy, and I say that as one of the many Jews who don't follow IDF actions with a rally of nationalistic jingo. To support this guy for supporting Hamas is a logically and morally indefensible position, devoid of any redeeming elements. If he believed some Israeli actions or laws are racist, then he wouldn't join an overtly racist party. If he believed civilians were being unfairly targetted, and that that's wrong (the only reasonable position) then he wouldn't join a party which does that openly and unashamedly. If he believed IDF actions erred into terrorism, and that THAT was wrong, then he wouldn't have joined a party explicitly connected to terrorism, who openly use terrorist actions as a means of acting like a resistance force, and gaining public support. The man is a hypocrite, with no logical basis for his position - plain and simple. You have no logical defense for his move. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Disgusting as ever Tamar/Shaul/Ari/Mussa... It doesn't say anything about him having been a 'good friend' of Carter's - only that he sang at his inauguration. On the basis of a cheap and obvious pun, you've attacked what sounds like a good Jew who served his people well - and on the page announcing his death. You're truly a despicable, unGodly creature. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I've pointed out before how JTA's Op-Eds are invariably given to people who are wholly against a two-state solution, with the only moderating Op-Eds being the more balanced ones from some of the JTA staff. This whole article again reflects the entirely anti-negotiation position of the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox communities, and it is shameful that a Jew should have produced what are undoubtedly knowingly deceitful arguments, as are presented in the article above. The summary of them is:- - They haven't given them targets publically (which they provably have - whats disputable is that they haven't been as high up the agenda). - The Arabs haven't immediately done everything we want (disingenuous, as clearly that was never a likely outcome - nor has Israel done what even it's allies want) - The US should be wholly pro-Israel regardless (I don't think any of the more informed or less partisan commentators take that position). 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 "The president assured us that in private discussions, Arabs have agreed to stop the incitement and to recognize Israel’s legitimate right to be a homeland for the Jewish people, but they have yet to express this publicly." That's factually incorrect. It's been said countless times that the Arab states have been pressurized on incitement, and recognition of Israel, as I'm sure you're aware. "I have not heard one Arab leader publicly recognize Israel’s legitimate right to be a Jewish homeland and a free democratic society in the Middle East. I have not heard one Arab leader publicly recognize that Israel is a nation among the nations of the world. I have not heard one Arab leader call for the elimination of incitement and hatred against the State of Israel. I have not heard one Arab leader recommend that the educational tools used to indoctrinate hatred against Israel be eliminated and new textbooks published in which the State of Israel is displayed on the geographic map of the Middle East." I've also not heard Bibi say that settlement expansion would be halted. What you are saying is that as the other side haven't moved first, on their considerably more nebulous, US imposed targets...some hypocrisy here, no? It's clearly a politically motivated attack, as you certainly didn't expect after a couple of months of pressure for all of the issues to have been resolved - and indeed they haven't been, by either side. I think it's willfully disingenuous to suggest you think they would have been. "Also, I did not hear any words of conciliation and moderation at the recent Fatah convention." No. But what you did see is a noteable shift towards representative in favor of negotiation with Israel. Again, what you're saying is essentially "the ME conflict isn't immediately sorted out, so therefore efforts to sort it out have failed"...it's very clear that your aim is to bring down any negotiation, given your hardline Orthodox position. "What I did hear is that Israel had no justification to defend itself after waiting seven years and absorbing tens of thousands of missiles fired at its people." Nope. That's entirely your interpretation. As with all of our allies, opinions on Cast Lead were hugely critical on the way it was carried out. Unsurprisingly, those of Fatah were extremely so. That's in no way a surprise, nor is it a direct argument that Israel has no right to defend itself. "What I did hear is a Palestinian leader warning the Arab states not to normalize their ties with Israel. (“Normalization of Israel’s ties with the Arab countries before the occupation ends in the Palestinian areas is the last thing that the Palestinians should have to experience," said Abu El-Izz Dajani, a former PLO ambassador.)" So they said that Arab states shouldn't normalize ties with Israel until issues are resolved? Isn't that our position with many Arab states (btw. the answer is yes). "After meeting with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, Jordan’s Foreign Minister Nasser Judeh told her that confidence-building measures that the United States wants the Arab states to take will not produce a resolution to the conflict." Er...and nobody would suggest it would. There are countless issues to be resolved, and it's clearly not a matter on one side saying "okay - you're right...everything's fine"...again, another disingenuous point. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MUSSA/SHAUL/ARI/TAMAR Is this going to be the point where your mental instability leads to you having to think of a 7th name for yourself? It seems very like when you talked about killing Peres; then Sharon; or when you called Olmert a pedophile... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Thoroughly Disgusting:- I think thats outrageously naive of you. This guy is a Jew who could express his empathy for the Palestinian people, or his opinions on the racial divisions within Israel as an academic; or through supporting the countless Jewish Israeli or International groups that do so. That's what the majority of the diaspora, and a huge chunk of Jews within Israel manage to do, and it's the only reasonable, supportable opposition to any perceived injustice. Instead he has joined a murderous rabble of disorganized terrorists, who include murderers within their ranks. How can you possibly defend that? If this academic considers Israeli policies to be racist, how is joining an equally or more racist organization a good thing??? If he considers the killings of Palestinian civilians to be unacceptable, how can he logically justify joining an organization that uses scare tactics, and the targetting of civilians for political means??? It's a massive PR coup for Hamas, and a thoroughly indefensible move by this guy...how you can even TRY to support such a move astounds me. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Truly despicable move from Mubarak,and one which is hard to fathom politically. He doesn't support BAshir himself - I can only assume it's one of his attempts to appease the muslim brotherhood in Egypt by showing his independence from Western pressure...clearly, as a bit of a tinpot Western dictator, he may be trying to prove his independence. Regardless, it's an outrageous thing to have done, and I hope those he relies on for power make that clear to him. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Kissass. I'm sure Assad is there to check the situation regarding Iran's financing and arming of the Syrian govt and militia...the instability in Iran brings with it insecurity for Hizbollah and the Syrian state. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL - you're a bit slow in replying, so in case you missed my reply to you, here it is again:- Ari H 08/13/09 03:40 PM CHERYL:- LOL! You made a couple of specific claims, and I asked you to show me the backup to your claims...otherwise they’re just made up! And no weaseling out of it this time by telling ME to find the evidence behind YOUR claims! That’s really pretty weak...so here are the questions again, AND your direct quotes. It’s very simple, and I’ll be glad to do the research on whatever ‘lies’ you were referring to. “Ari H, the lies are all coming from Obama and his “czars”” 1) Give me examples of specific lies from the White House on this issue about what will or won’t be in the bill - and I mean actual factual lies. “Expert opinions have already been given from Canadian and European healthcare professionals and they are warning us not to be like them” 2) WHO? The main UK person was MEP Daniel Hannon - who contradicted the policy of his right-wing party, who then all came out to defend their NHS!!! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Oh Leonard!...so naive... I hope you don't think that the reality of end-of-life counselling will actually get through to people? It may be all well and good for you intelligent lawyer types, but for us little people - we much prefer to choose to believe in 'death-squads', forced euthanasia, and scenes from Terry Gilliam's film 'Brazil'... Fact is, most of the world is pretty normal, y'see...fantastical stories of things which are clearly conspiriacy theories make much better stories than the dull old, perfectly reasonable reality, and if the PR machines of the GOP and big-Pharmaceuticals are there to ensure it's repeated every day, then all the better! There's nothing people hate more than politicians lying to them...unless it's a really juicy lie they want to believe... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL EDWARDS and 'BLACKIE' You two backwards hate-mongers are clearly desperately trying to eke out attacks even when my opinion is the same as yours...it's truly pathetic to watch. Look at my posts - the positions I've taken are:- 1) This happens all too regularly, and is a continuation of the regular back and forth incidents in the region. 2) That this is clearly a very bad thing. Now which of those two points do you two disagree with??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- 1) They were driving near Ma'aleh, and so are likely to be either settlers, or visiting settlers - nonetheless, the attack is certainly a continuation of the regular settler/Pal violence. 2) No Hope that answers your typically disingenuous questions. What I said was that such incidents happen quite regularly, clearly indicating a level of concern, which you seem to agree with...but then you can't let the fact that you agree with me get in the way of a chance to have a snipe. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- So you're explicitly saying that you agree with the line:- "was also the leader of the number one recognized terrorist state in the world… Ireland"??? Let's be clear here Cheryl, as it sounds like you are agreeing with that contention...that IRELAND is the "number one recognized terrorist state in the world. If you knew anything about it, you'd know that the GOVERNMENT of the Republic of Ireland were against the actions of the IRA - the IRA formed when the government reached official agreement with Britain, which was when N.Ireland was formed as part of the UK. The Garda (Irish police) regularly collaborated with the UK on a daily basis in apprehending IRA terrorists, and there is no suggestion that the government were financing or supporting them. IN FACT, THE IRA's FUNDING OPENLY CAME FROM INDIVIDUALS IN THE US! Regardless, your contention that the IRA themselves made the ROI the number one terrorist state are so ridiculous as to be laughable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- LOL! You made a couple of specific claims, and I asked you to show me the backup to your claims...otherwise they're just made up! And no weaseling out of it this time by telling ME to find the evidence behind YOUR claims! That's really pretty weak...so here are the questions again, AND your direct quotes. It's very simple, and I'll be glad to do the research on whatever 'lies' you were referring to. “Ari H, the lies are all coming from Obama and his “czars”” 1) Give me examples of specific lies from the White House on this issue about what will or won’t be in the bill - and I mean actual factual lies. “Expert opinions have already been given from Canadian and European healthcare professionals and they are warning us not to be like them” 2) WHO? The main UK person was MEP Daniel Hannon - who contradicted the policy of his right-wing party, who then all came out to defend their NHS!!! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- "Ari H, the lies are all coming from Obama and his “czars”" 1) Give me examples of specific lies from the White House on this issue about what will or won't be in the bill - and I mean actual factual lies. I can give you a massive dossier of direct and blatant lies and insinuation about 'death squads' and euthanasia from the GOP! "Expert opinions have already been given from Canadian and European healthcare professionals and they are warning us not to be like them" 2) WHO? The main UK person was MEP Daniel Hannon - who contradicted the policy of his right-wing party, who then all came out to defend their NHS!!! Anyway, the proposals aren't even the same as the systems in all of the other developed countries...the proposals are to have essentially a public insurance, with collective negotiation with the healthcare providers. The key starting points are that the US pays more per person than other developed countries, and yet their general health is poorer than any of the similar developed countries, as the current system has no collective bargaining, security for the policyholders, or incentive for prevention. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ah, the GOP have finally found an issue...and then lied about it. It's remarkable how many gullible fools already believe that there will be 'death panels' or 'forced euthanasia' - probably the most ridiculous political lie I can remember from recent years. However, the reform is supported by the majority of Jewish groups, although it's not really news that the Republican Jewish Coalition supports...er...the Republicans. Incidentally, several of the claims above are demonstrably false. For example, the claims of tax increases fall down on the fact that US health spending is already at record levels, and that those not covered still get treated in Emergency Rooms...which is paid for by the govt and other policy holders. In other words, that wouldn't change. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stoney USMC - I'm not sure what Jerusalem has to do with the healthcare issue. Anyway, your sentence about seniors being pressured to "take the red-pill for pain" is exactly the level of disingenuous craziness I was talking about. If we can stay on this issue, answer me this:- NAME ME A WESTERN COUNTRY WHERE YOU THINK VULNERABLE PEOPLE ARE PUT UNDER PRESSURE TO ENTER INTO EUTHANASIA. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL EDWARDS:- Nice comeback smartguy...looks like your campaign of trying to post directly after me on threads doesn't extend to making opposing points... Care to read my post and make an actual reply? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL EDWARDS:- If you really want gloves off, personal attacks and honesty:- Given your history of mental illness, homelessness and alcoholism (anybody can search for the World Magazine interview - I won't post the link, but have it bookmarked), I've kept well away from personal fights with you Will, but you're really trying my patience with your endless attacks about what a bad Jew I am. Again, what you're missing, is that you're saying me AGREEING WITH HAARETZ on this makes me a traitor, in favor of destroying Israel. In other words, anybody who agrees with that issue of Haaretz is a "collaborator"...incidentally, many of my views are shared by other Israeli Jews, as well as the majority of US Jews, but then I know for a fact how much you hate THEM. I recommend voluntary work as being well suited to you, as you make it sound like you lack the intelligence for normal paid posts...more probably, I think you purposefully distort my agreement with the mainstream view on this issue (that Fatah have made a little progress) for your own dishonest ends. Quite despicable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL EDWARDS:- I know you get delusional and hysterical, but your comments are without any perspective, merit, or accuracy. "she was center stage and presided over the largest world wide conference condemning Israel and calling for the eradication of all Jews." 1) She was moderating a conference - not leading the calls 2) She should have done more to stop the anti-Israel speakers, as she has said 3) 'The eradication of all Jews'? Who called for that? 4) The claim against was that she didn't do enough to stop such speakers, but she did condemn them fully and extensively AT THE TIME, AT THE CONFERENCE. " She, who also has a long history of hate speech towards Israel and Judaism" 1) She's spoken against the actions of Israel, but never against Judaism! None of the Jewish groups claim that. Give me something she's said - a quote + a source to back up your hysterical claim! " was also the leader of the number one recognized terrorist state in the world… Ireland." 1) HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! 2) She was President - not 'Taoshac' (SP), or Prime Minister. "She only toned down her remarks after the Durban conference because she was told it was bad PR" 1) Nope - she condemned the anti-Israel speakers AT THE TIME! "For Obama, you, or anyone else to defend this woman is to take a stand against Israel." 1) Well Willy boy - the rest of the world has rather accepted Robinson, as you'll see from the lack of media interest outside of JTA...she's well respected, which is why the politically motivated sh*t-storm is so detestable, fuelled as it is by outright lies, for suggestible fools to believe and run with... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 To illustrate just how the rest of the media have reported the ceremony, far from the delusional hatred of the JTA boards... "Obama: 16 medal recipients exemplify 'a life well lived' " http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2009-08-12-obama-medal-of-freedom_N.htm NEGATIVE MENTIONS OF ROBINSON - ZERO Obama honors 'agents of change' http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-08-12-medal_N.htm NEGATIVE MENTIONS OF ROBINSON - ZERO Obama presents 16 with Presidential Medal of Freedom "http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/12/medal.of.freedom/index.html" NEGATIVE MENTIONS OF ROBINSON - ZERO Haaretz...very little mention; ABC News, very little, BBC, very little, JTA - about 12-15 articles and comment pieces! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Excellent! For a European state to have been acknowledging only studies of Catholicism was a ridiculous situation. Italy is often the laughing stock of Europe for it's nationalistic tendencies and political extremism, but this is a reasonable change. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The Op-Ed is a very balanced and reasonable portrayal of the situation. As such, it bears little or no relation to the posts. Dan Friedman - I would say that suggesting Jewish issues were ignored during the Presidential campaign is demonstrably false, given that a push on the ME was one of the major topics. Clearly US Jews also disagree with you in a big way, given their overwhelming support. For a number of other posters, this one minor issue - which hasn't penetrated the mainstream agenda - is being used as a stick with which to attack Obama. He's pushing Israel on settlements - get over it! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 ARKADY:- Not a clue what you're talking about...for those who missed it, here is what I posted above:- "Any decent diplomat should do two things:- 1) Raise his concerns with his superiors - make any suggestions on presentation, etc. 2) Keep such concerns private. " And here is what Arkady has accurately quoted me as saying:- "The relationship with US Jews is certainly a big concern, so the diplomat is certainly right on that, although it would have been more sensible to keep those concerns more private." ARKADY - they mean the same thing - smartass!!! Really - some people need to put more effort into their reading before trying, cack-handedly to attack people. ARKADY - from both it's clear that my objection is to his having allowed his concerns to become public! There is no contradiction, so I'd be a bit more cautious before attacking people...there really are some sub-normal idiots on these pages. Anyway, if you want to talk about the actual issues, then as I made clear in the two posts you failed to read correctly, I disagree with your contention that diplomats should agree with govt policy - they will of course have their own opinions, and you can't prevent that. However, as I said, it's crucial that any concerns are kept completely private - that's where he crossed the line. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The battles between settlers and Pals is a running sore, and is likely to be for some time to come, and terrible acts like this aren't uncommon. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I've just noticed that there is a small story on JTA of the protests in Australia at the similar award being given to John Pilger - the much more fiercely anti-Israel journalist... But then Kevin Rudd isn't Obama, so even though that's more extreme, it still isn't worthy of 10+ articles... Ah - how politics and media work... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It is a political issue, which pro-Israeli PR have pushed to attack Obama. It says a lot that there have been around 10+ articles on JTA about it, and next to nothing in some other Israeli outlets, nor has it made waves in the US. When a group says "Don't give them an award...they don't always take our side strongly enough", it tends to be a low-level protest, which is what the Robinson issue has been. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The argument AGAINST Robinson is purely that she didn't do enough at Durban to stop anti-Israel speeches...her speaking out on behalf of Pal civilians is something she shares with many people, and isn't a problem of itself. She could also not be said to be 'reflexively' anti-Israel as some posters have claimed - there are no serious allegations of anti-semitism. The argument FOR Robinson (and the reason she got the award) is a basic on a longer career...as I've said, I lived in Ireland, and I know how she is seen as a kind of Princess Diana figure for her endless work in Africa, and other areas. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 N SCHUSTER:- (Sent directly) Well, angry man, you can direct all of those bilious, backwards accusations at the Haaretz commentator I was agreeing with!!! You clearly lack the basic intelligence to understand English, so I'll make it clear for you in short simple words, just so you don't go getting yourself all excited and making pathetic unsubstantiated allegations...now read more carefully:- What. I. Said. Was. "Not reason for a GREAT deal of celebration for Israel, but it’s certainly a large step in the right direction. " Okay smartass? I - and the Haaretz Op-Ed piece - clearly want to see Fatah strengthened against Hamas, and want to see Fatah mature. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I OR HAARETZ SUPPORT FATAH... I can't believe that somebody like you can so severely fail to understand a common position...that Fatah are bad, but that the conference was "a step in the right direction" - as I very clearly said...a child could have understood it. Now I suggest you read things more carefully before throwing accusations about, or people would be well withing their rights going about saying you thought pedophilia was fine, or something equally despicable and slanderous...okay smart guy? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL - I didn't call sincere opposition insane - I called the suggestions of euthanasia insane, which they certifiably are! Anyway, on the issue of the town hall meetings, they're certainly indefensible, and certainly organized mobs. The PR against healthcare reform is desperate to spin it as 'ordinary people', but the actual 'ordinary people' - including US Reps - I've been speaking to have been embarrassed by the hollering, barracking, squealing groups, physically intimidating congressmen, etc. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PHILI ALAWAL:- You ask "Will you explain to us how you deduced that “Phili also seems to believe that there willbe forced eutanesia"… Well Phili, you wrote "As a senior citisen I do not want Obama,or his cronies to tell me when I need to expire,because of his cost considerations… " That one's pretty open and shut...I guess that as a senior citizen, you forgot typing it. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The key comment is that Pilger "has only promoted one side of the [Mideast] dispute" In other words, what the Jewish groups are demanding is that even journalists cannot receive awards unless they take a broadly pro-Israel position - and don't give me crap about 'balance', as when somebody is truly balanced, both sides think the person is against them. I'd like to see their response if there were a serious act of protest against somebody for being too pro-Israel...it's pathetic tyranny is what it is. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL EDWARDS:- Your post in particular strikes me as being unhinged, unsubstantiated, and unstable. You clearly lack even a basic knowledge of many of the issues you speak of. Let me take each line of your post, and see if you can back any of them up:- "Mrs Robinson is an anti-Semite plain and simple" Nobody claims this...they claim she is anti-Israel. She is still a respected humanitarian, and a soft liberal - the claims of actual anti-semitism you've only backed up by Durban. "She hails from Ireland the land most friendly to the Palestinian Authority and other terrorist groups" As you know I actually lived in Ireland, and I and other Jews on JTA have said we didn't experience the slightest hint of anti-semitism there...I got more when I lived in the US, and more bigotry from other Jews in Tel Aviv than in Dublin. Of course they have an affinity with the Pal CIVILIANS given their history, but that's extremely different from your wholly ignorant claim. "She presided over the infamous Durban conference that called for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. " You suggest this was what the conference said, which is untrue...it was what some DELEGATES said, and were wholly condemned. The argument against her IS COMPLETELY that she didn't prevent the anti-Israel elements from talking, which she later said she would have done differently. "She is not any friend do democracy, freedom of choice, or Judaism in any form." Again, with a long history of campaigning for democracy in Africa, human rights, etc., and no claims of anti-semitism, this is farcical. "She is a vicious terrorist who’s weapons are words instead of rockets but the outcome is the same." Will, you're gonna give yourself an ulcer. You really need to get laid, or find a wife down at the soup kitchen or something. What you mean is that she didn't do enough at Durban...beyond that you have nothing else...nothing...and it's quite sad that you've failed to come up with examples of things she has said or done, and have chosen to be quite so dishonest in your arguments. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 1) I made a point that I've seen many US Reps get Op-Eds...not US Dems, so MELVYN, yes I know it's Op-Ed - I said as much, which you failed to read; and BLACKIE, yes JTA is clearly on the right of Israeli politics, and of US politics - although that is on the basis of Israeli issues, not being pro-US Rep for other reasons. 2) EDWARD BERNSTEIN - Tutu was initially included in the criticizm until that didn't play well. His positions on the Palestinian question have been the same as Robinson's, so I disagree that the two can be distinguished...the way one has been used by political lobbyists and not the other is down to what plays well - not any principle.. incidentally, you cite Tutu's work in SA - well Robinson's main humanitarian work was in Africa; former Yugoslavia, and Ireland...the issue of Israel is well down her agenda. 3) The lack of coverage of this story in the rest of the world press, and in other Israeli or US outlets reflects the true scale of the issue...JTA has carried many more of the lobbyists' statements than the other Israeli papers. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Blackie - actually the majority of your posts also call other Jews Nazis, AND use regular Nazi terms towards them, so as ever, you lack even basic self-awareness, and your hypocrisy is hilariously glaring... I really have concerns for the basic levels of intelligence, verbal ability, and mental health shown on these threads.. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 A pretty cheap piece of tourist advertising... Ah, the slow news days again... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Overall the changes from the conference are positive, but not a big enough move for celebration...the 'younger' set are in (more pro-negotiation), and Abbas is strengthened. A pretty good opinion piece by Avi Issacharoff is below - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1106961.html 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yosef - the comments on your blog today contain a telling phrase.. ."The Fatah Congress has been a dismal failure...You’d never...know this based on much of the mainstream media coverage" I think what you mean is "Most people think it's been a success". And it certainly has! Not reason for a GREAT deal of celebration for Israel, but it's certainly a large step in the right direction. Younger members elected, who are more pro-negotiation; the example of greater democracy within Fatah; the strengthening of Fatah against Hamas... A good comment piece is below:- http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1106961.html 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WOW! There's a whole barrel of crazy out there...are there any grown up commenters, who perhaps, feel that this is a mistake by these Jewish groups, or that they've given too much credence to her humanitarian work at the expense of Israel? Given that the complaints about Robinson have been related to her not doing enough to stop anti-Israel speeches during Durban, there may be some understandable unease...it seems many of the posters know little or nothing about either her, or the Jewish organizations supporting her! The two winners for outright crazy have to be:- ONESIME DE GIRARDIN:- Who thinks "The criminal shenanigans of these seditious Israeli NGOs, financed by the dastardly European Community among them perfidious Albion and Germany, is the major reason that the Israeli government is seeking to ban these groups." (which they aren't)...calls them "lying Jewish anti-semites" (which is crazy)....and says he is "mounting a massive remedial pr campaign against these ingrates"... Hmmm...I'll look out for that. The other has to go to:- PAUL WINTER:- Who calls them "Jewish antisemitic groups who are in the pay of foreign states hostile to Israel"...er...like the US and the UK...our biggest allies... He calls Robinson an 'antisemite' (which she clearly isn't), says she "ignored human right issues of people in Burma, Sudan and the Republic of Congo" (which is clearly THE OPPOSITE of the truth), and says she is "not only opposed to Israel but to Jews world wide" (which is again, provably untrue). Incidentally Paul...I'm only aware of having stood up for TD once, and that was not to you, but to somebody who had misread his post...show me where I've stood up for him, as at the moment, you've either got confused (which is a high liklihood), or you're talking garbage (also likely). I hope you show me where I've stood up for TD soon, or I'll drop you a personal message in case you forget. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm increasingly aware of how completely insane many posters are...I yearn for somebody to hold a valid, sane opposing view...here's a summary of the thread so far:- - 'Tamar/Ari/Shaul/Lawrence/Mussa''s rant about how the new healthcare bill will include forced euthanasia (!!!) how reform Rabbis are Nazis, and Rahm Emanuel want to kill old Jews to pay for young Mexicans. - Douglas Jay Lambert found something to agree with in this madness(!) - Phili also seems to believe that there will be forced euthanasia (in his case, I wouldn't blame anybody who tried). - Stoney USMC believes at least some US Jewish leaders are actually against Jewish causes; or that Obama equated Gaza with the holocaust (he didn't) or said that "Iran needs nuclear power" (he didn't), and told Jews they can't live in Jerusalem (he didn't). Bizarrely, Cheryl's post is the only one which doesn't contain a direct or implicit acceptance of something which is provably false, or which isn't simply completely mental...well done Cheryl...have a metaphorical prize! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The headline is a bit puzzling, but the first line makes matters clear - "Are the parties in the Middle East ready for a U.S. peace plan?". Whether plans are workable depends on the politicians and negotiators of Israel and the Pals - NOT on Obama. He should only ever be a mediator, pushing for progress - not deciding on red-lines. There are a lot of positive signs of progress, and clearly there is a build up to movement on a number of issues, which will only be the beginning. Violence from the Pals is way down, freedom of movement and autonomy has improved in the WB at least, and Bibi's hardline credentials make concession MORE likely to be palatable to the population, and not LESS. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The mutual posturing between govts will presumably, and hopefully come to nothing, but it all comes from the arms cache explosion. The instability in Iran will certainly limit Hizbollah's ambitions for the forseeable future. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 But of course, these aren't proper Jews...and of course, they hate all other Jews (which is a terrible thing to do), and I HATE them for that...and they hate Israel, and they're clearly Nazis...AND US Jews are Nazi's too... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Any decent diplomat should do two things:- 1) Raise his concerns with his superiors - make any suggestions on presentation, etc. 2) Keep such concerns private. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Gary - your first sentence rather attacks the existence of the state of Israel...you should probably be more cautious in how you phrase your arguments. Anyway - quite an interesting debate. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 On the issue of Sandori - I'd recommend people read about Professor Kevin MacDonald, who Sandori follows, and THEN form their opinions on him. Anyway, this PR campaign has notably dropped opposition to Archbishop Tutu, whose opposition to Israeli actions, and support for Pal civilians was similarly strongly worded...clearly he's too tough a target. The only argument against Robinson is that she didn't do enough to stop anti-Israel speeches while at the UN. It's certainly not enough to warrant the storm some people are trying to provoke. In the rest of the world media, she seems to be well respected for her humanitarian work in many fields...she was also a massively popular Irish President (up to 93% approval ratings). 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's bad timing from the Rabbi, given the prevailing public mood. It's also important that the policies of the IDF come from the military leaders, mediated by elected representatives - not from Rabbis. I really don't see why publishing an interview with a gay and religious officer is reason for criticism. What the Rabbi COULD say is that he disagrees with the guy interviewed...NOT that gay people shouldn't be interviewed. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Shell is "run by one of Hitler's own"??? I'm very much against the politics of Big Oil, but even I think that's a bit of a spurious comparison. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Where did my comment go? 1) A survey of 500 self-identified Jewish Dems itself is of next to no value...the sample is too small and poorly validated. 2) A hugely partisan Rep organization are not in any way suitable for conducting such a study. 3) Some of the items cited in the article wouldn't make it into a poor undergrad's research. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 From 'Mussa' started up, it was 100% certain that it was Tamar/Shaul/Ari Cohen, etc., as they implicitly acknowledge on this thread. This is THE SAME person who has repeatedly laughed at Ariel Sharon's condition, called everyone from Peres to Olmert pedophiles, and claims that virtually everybody is in the pay of either from the CIA, M15, or Mossad...Mossad themselves of course all being in the pay of the CIA... It's the same mad person I remember you repeatedly telling me you simply ignore, as you know they 'aren't well'. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think virtually everybody is completely disgusted by this kind of action...it's indefensible What's more, given the way the public mood has turned against the Haredi in recent months, certain elements (i.e., this isn't ALL Haredi) still seem to think that such action will benefit their community...in fact, it will continue to turn people against them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Banning things is almost always undesirable, and Mein Kampf is sufficiently universally derided to only serve to expose it's own flaws... Publish away. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Mussa - Tamar/Lawrence/Pierre/Shaul/Ari I know you're both litereally mentally deficient, and like to purposefully provoke people, and I always just ignore you, but this is truly disgusting, even for a despicable mess like you. Shameful. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The relationship with US Jews is certainly a big concern, so the diplomat is certainly right on that, although it would have been more sensible to keep those concerns more private. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 ARKADY:-AriH, following is for your use “Iran will reach the nuclear threshold by the end of the year, Israel’s military intelligence chief said... Arkady - if you'd read the JTA article you asked me to read, then you'd know that it said Iran would be in a position to DECIDE WHETHER TO DEVELOP a nuclear weapon by the end of the year...even that is contentious...not that they would have a usable weapon. Clearly they are planning to do so, but the head of Shin Bet said that it would be around late 2011/2012 at the earliest before they would have anything usable, and that was condemned as being incorrect - clearly Shin Bet has reason to play up the threat, understandably so. If the head of Shin Bet is saying 2012 at the earliest, and the US is saying 2013 at the earliest, when both have reason to exaagerate, then I think 2013 seems reasonable. Certainly your implication that they could have a USABLE weapon by the end of the year is 100% certainly not true, and as I said, is down to a misreading of the article you cited. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Er...Yes Will...The evidence that US Intel weren't convinced on WMD is overwhelming, and an argument we shouldn't really get into here. Regardless, they still have reason to overemphasize the threat, so 2013 seems like a reasonable figure to take as a worst case scenario. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 JTA - I've seen many articles from US Republicans on your pages... Any chance you'll try to be a responsible arbiter of the news, and have a democrat some day? They ARE the main party there these days... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So this is an article by an active Republican...uh huh... There's never any pretence at balance on JTA when it comes to US politics. Anyway, I notice he didn't mention Archbishop Tutu - also cited as 'Anti-Israel' by Republicans until they realized that wouldn't play well, given his impeccable credentials...with Robinson, they kept going. This is politically motivated, Republican backed attack. Robinson criticises Israel - sure - as even many of our allies do, but like Tutu, her credentials are solid, and there can be no suggestion that she backs terrorism, or is anti-semitic. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 If it was so much of a mistake, why is Bibi handing over ever more control of WB areas to Pals? And extremely successfully too! This is all part of the hardline posturing which will come before the annoncement of concessions on settlements. The Gaza 'withdrawal' was nothing of the sort...full control of Gaza was still with us...that's not 'withdrawal'. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I sincerely and wholly admire your position on this Will, as I know how much you are against homosexuality on religious grounds. The revulsion these killings have provoked is a sign of the basic humanity and decency of people, which is something that should be recognized and applauded. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - Again - you know 100% certainly that 'Mussa' is the same person as Tamar/Shaul/Lawrence/Pierre/Ari Cohen. They're certainly Jewish, certainly housebound, and almost certainly American. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Certainly, racism is often rife in all armies, and in this disturbing case, it is right that it has been publicized, and partly dealt with. However, it doesn't say anything about actions against the individuals responsible...again, nothing is ever done about racial bullying in the military. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, basic logic takes a back seat to people arguing points nobody has raised, or disputed, ending in acrimony. The level of debate on these boards has become woeful. For my part, Melvyn attacked JQP for having argued the "equivalence" of the Abrahammic religions, when in fact all he said was that all 3 contained haters. I pointed that out. The rest of the posts on the issue are waffle, which is ironic, given that the original issue was fast food...an issue which we all very quickly forgot. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Slow news days... Stone throwing is de rigour, both at, and from the settlements. We know that to be the case. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MELVYN:- I've looked back at your posts, and I still have no idea what you're talking about, which is something we can share. JQP very clearly said only that the 3 monotheistic religions all had some hate-filled idiots...that's ALL he said on the issue, so your lengthy post on a comparison of religions WAS irrelevant...you clearly can't possibly disagree with the comment he made. On the issue of Gandhi, you can keep your wholly twisted representation of history, where you think a representative account of his positions is that Gandhi advocated violence from the Indian Hindus, and told Jews to lie down for the sake of the Germans. You're being extremely disingenuous in your representation of history, in order to support your argument against a point nobody made. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Put this into perspective...it's two small NGOs, and a Jewish former Intel Minister who have said he should be charged. Will - even if it were the state of S. Africa (which it very certainly isn't) then it certainly WOULDN'T be an act of war. The minister was calling for IDF leaders with dual South African citizenship to be charged - they're not just under Israeli control. It also, certainly WON'T happen. I think both the ambiguity of the headline and the sensitivities around the issue have rather lead people to misread the story. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Those against Sandori - I'd recommend you read a bit about Prof. Kevin MacDonald, who Sandori claims to follow. I studied under a colleague of his, and find the man academically disingenuous, as do most of his peers. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ignoring our mentally ill (Tamar/Pierre/Mussa - whatever they're calling themself now), and Nazi-aligned posters (Sandori), I can't forsee anything happen on the Lebanese front. A thaw with Syria appears reasonably likely over the next couple of years - especially with the uncertainty in Iran. That also puts pressure on Hizbollah. This is just the necessary posturing after the cache find. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Several have said "The USIntel agencies were wrong on WMD". That's rather unfair, as we now know they weren't, but that POLITICIANS forced them to create a case based on the likes of the Niger forgery. Also, in that case the US had an incentive to play up the threat, which it also has in the case of Iran. This seems a reasonable assumption, given the head of Shin Bet saying about 2012 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm just waiting for somebody to say - "Y'know the most oppressed members of society these days are white, middle-aged, middle-class males!" The attempts to call Sotomayor racist have hinged SOLELY on the comment she made about her being able to make a better decision than a white, middle-aged male - a flippant comment I think she made once some considerable time ago. It's been a pretty poor effort from the GOP to smear her, and although it has caught a few of the more suggestible members of the GOP (see above), it hasn't caught the middle-ground, which is why she has been confirmed. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is the right decision - and I think all sane posters fully agree on that. The fragmentation and infighting amongst Jews at every level is massively damaging, and quite shameful. This MAY have been intended to preserve independent identities, but that's not sustainable in the modern world. These kids need to be able to carry their ethnic and religious backgrounds into their dealings with others, and if they aren't even raised being treated the same as another very similar group, then there's no hope for them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Melvyn:- Firstly, your entire post is based on the belief that John Q Public had made an "attempt at illustrating equivalency among the 3 monotheistic faiths"... What he actually said to Will was "There are 3 monotheistic religions that unfortunately include narrow minded bigots like you who are intolerant of other’s beliefs."...and that was ALL he said - i.e. not what you suggest. I'm really tired of the astoundingly low level of debate on these boards...it really is awful. You've basically replied at length to something nobody said. Equally, the points you made are clearly also massively inaccurate - so Gandhi advocated violence from Indians, and told Jews to lie down for the sake of the Germans? Don't you think that's worse than a child's reading and oversimplification of history? You're clearly so desperate to disagree that you'll misrepresent the situation to suggest Gandhi was some barbaric Jew-hater...truly terrible stuff...I don't know why I bother... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - Comparing US Jews to any complicit in the policies of Nazism is typically despicable...I know you really hate US Jews, and Americans generally in a big way, but it raises the question - why do you still live there? Why have you lived there all your life? If everybody in the US is as anti-semitic as you repeatedly say, why not move? A rather more normal, sane interpretation of the story is that it reflects the indentity split between US Jews - the majority of whom are broadly against settlements; and Israeli Jews, who are more split on the issue. The current defense is to suggest (completely despicably) that all the Jews who differ from the completely pro-settlement line are not proper Jews, are clearly anti-semitic, and in this case, are comparable to those who collaborated in WWII... Utterly childish, and thoroughly contemptible. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Are there any grownups on this thread to supervise??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is a win-win situation for Limbaugh and the Dems:- Limbaugh loves the publicity, and it boosts his ratings. He also seeks to appeal to a particularly hardline (slightly mad) demographic, who may appreciate such comparisons. The Democrats get to call on the GOP to denounce him, linking Limbaugh more strongly to the party, and suggesting that GOPers are detached from reality, and that Limbaugh is typical of the Rep's mentality. The GOP can't denounce him, as they share a market, so it's the Reps who lose face. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - your suggestions that Pals as a people are just too lazy to work is truly outrageous, and wholly detached from reality. It wouldn't be supported by even the most partisan economics professor in the region. Anyway, it's good that we agree on the story itself. The news has been full of complete garbage recently...stories of political proposals which will clearly come to nothing; reiterations of positions we already knew (e.g. various European countries being against the settlements)... Slow news period... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 1 - Again, this is clearly never gonna happen. It's pure PR. 2 - The issue of BtF has clearly come up several times. i) Firstly the sources were NOT unnamed. All details were apparently available to the IDF (not the public) provided their security was assured. ii) This continual attempt to encourage suspicion of NGOs has to end sometime. Around the world human-rights organizations get a lot of respect, and the govt can't always try to claim that all independent reports on them are not independent...that's the action of a Kim Jong-Il, or an Ahmadinejad. At some point they'll have to say they disagree with some of the reports, but have taken other points on-board...indeed the IDF already does this after every conflict. iii) The likes of the BtS' report could easily be argued against with facts, testimony, etc., but the IDF have only raised suspicions by avoiding the points raised. Incidentally, there are many other senior troops who have made similar allegations publically, such as the guy a couple of days ago who said it was normal for kids of 13+ to be shot at, arrested or beaten...he was quite senior, and was named...I would like the IDF to argue against his claims with evidence from other officers, rather than just try to undermine him with publicity. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Not sure what this story hinges on... There's no suggested involvement of Robinson in this actress's case, nor is she likely to have been involved, as an honorary President. As a result, the connection to Obama is hugely convoluted...in fact there isn't one. This story says that Oxfam consider one of their spokespersons working for a settlement business to be "an issue", which some people certainly disagree with. However, clearly Robinson and Obama are not connected. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - Where d'you go? You haven't replied yet! Cat got your tongue? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - What a crazy game-player you are!!!...you posted a reply, and then as I hadn't rushed back to check within 5 hours posted that I'd "cut and run"... I notice you didn't reply to any of my points about your claims of 'anti-semitism' against Robinson, or your lack of any suggestion that she supports terrorist groups. I called out your claims against the Nobel Peace Prize holder and respected man of God Archbishop Tutu, and you've provided no evidence, as 'it's not worth it'.(!) Well I think it is, sunshine! You made the allegations...you say you have evidence to back them up...go on then - make my head spin! You wouldn't just be some old crackpot making allegations of anti-semitism against anybody and everybody would you? You had the nerve to say that the population of the US (NB. Not the govt or leadership) were systemically anti-semitic, and provided no evidence for that either! If Americans are so anti-semitic, why do you still choose to be one? Why don't you move? How you have attacked the people of the country which is the essentially the second home of the Jews is despicable, and suggests you don't know what anti-semitism is. You certainly know how to DISH OUT racial and religious hatred in 1930's, industrial-scale quantities...so go on - give me the evidence that Archbishop Tutu is not just a critic of Israel as a state, but is actually antisemitic. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Er...Cheryl, the Palestinians are largely banned from manufacturing, and prevented from decent-scale exporting through restrictions on machinery and freedom of movement. Your argument is the one that the Pals use as an example of oppression. Anyway, I don't see that there's a story here - looks like more PR. The actress doesn't seem to be complaining (no quotes), and there's no implication that Robinson is involved. What the story says is that Oxfam still work with her, but see her promoting settlement business as an 'issue'. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl and I actually agree on this one, in that HRW and Amnesty etc. had condemned Hamas many times prior to this recent announcement, as she rightly said - this isn't news. Certainly you'd struggle to find a time when they made any pronouncements on the ME when they didn't condemn both sides - not that the media would ever reflect that, as people like to believe what they want to believe. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Well clearly! However, the HRW, the UN etc. have said as much countless times...I mean it's obvious... I guess it's just the slow news days 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Complete rubbish, as ever Cheryl...you haven't added anything to your previously quoted comment piece. Incidentally, I didn;t say anything about anti-Zionism. I asked you to explain allegations of anti-semitism. And to call Archbishop Tutu anti-semitic is another ridiculous and rather pathetic attack. The situation is, that you would have liked her, and Archbishop Tutu and others to be more pro-Israel...you have no allegations of them being pro-Hamas, or Hezbollah - all of your points are that she wasn't fully pro-Israel. How do you square that with a belief in basic democractic dissent? You clearly arguing that anybody who doesn't fully back Israeli action in wars, or their treatment of the Palestinians is anti-semitic. You've also ignored the point about your comment piece saying she was 'disasterous' as Irish PM - SHE HAD A POPULARITY RATING OF 93%! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 KEVIN - I agree fully that it's a hugely disturbing tendency, which is frighteningly widespread...especially disturbing given the parallels with anti-semitism through the ages, AND the clear hypocrisy of people who claim to believe in democracy, etc. I was just highlighting that the levels of racism weren't over the 50% mark for native, or US Jews, so the situation, while bad, is not QUITE as bad as it appears. Much of the racial hatred in the ME is also a product of the various grievances of the conflict, and it has been shown that it decreases when issues are resolved, so hopefully it's NOT just inherent racism amongst Israelis. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 What rubbish Cheryl...typical claims that probably the most Jew-friendly nation on earth has a large, widespread problem with anti-semitism. Let's be realistic...you have repeatedly said you are against any kind of push for a resolution of the conflict in the ME. Most realistically would be to say that you are against the administration's current pressure on Israel...NOT that that country itself is anti-semitic. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmmm...a story about preventing publications inciting 'inter-ethnic hatred', or defamation... There are plenty of posters on JTA who probably shouldn't post on this thread...(looking at you Cheryl, blackie, and 2btrue)... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - as you say yourself, it's a wholly partisan source...the article we're posting on is about the attacks on Robinson (they seem to have dropped the attacks on Archbishop Tutu), and this comment blog is part of that. I'd recommend anybody read it and try to make sense of it. The argument of this guy against Robinson is that she was part of the UN, whose head met with Nasrallah, or gave aid to Palestinians (as both the US and Israel have also done)...there are no actual points about her actions or words which have any substance. He's not actually come up with any points against her - read it and see. He also has many factual inaccuracies...for example, she was a popular Irish President, rather than a "disasterous" one. It's a blogger's attempt at a character assassination. So Cheryl - would you like to take a point or two from the article, and come up with any actual facts to back up the allegations of her being anti-semitic? Of course it's farcical to believe that Robinson will ever be brought before the International Criminal Tribunal, or that she even should be 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yosef - the blogger you quote says "It’s not as if Israelis don’t understand that Obama’s intentions toward them are good and his motives pure" - but I'm not sure I agree with that. The population of both sides need to be as onboard as possible - particularly for the political leaders to be willing to agree to concessions. Obviously PR and actually engaging the people is therefore very important. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - as ever, your complete refusal to countenance, or even aspire towards a peaceful future for Israel says rather a lot about your 'Devil-may-care' attitude to the importance of National Security, and what living in perpetuate conflict is like. I'm not sure your life in leafy Massachussetts really encourages basic understanding of the situation Israel is in - you talk about it like a Hollywood action film, where young soldiers go into war convinced of their invincibility. Well it's easy to play tough in a card game when it isn't your money. It also reflects rather badly on your continual talk of racial superiority and purity...it's always very 1930's, and is quite disturbing to hear Jews talk in that way. Fortunately, political leaders tend to be rather more connected to the situation, hence the major push from all of our allies to make some progress on the conflict...we haven't seen a major step forward since Egypt and Jordan. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Didn't the head of Shin Bet say a while ago that it would be around 2 years before a usable nuclear weapon could be produced? Even that's clearly on the low side, as most of the experts say a bit longer. However, the Brig General's words are also being twisted by the media. As you can see in this article he talks of them reaching a point where they COULD DECIDE TO DEVELOP nuclear weapons, whereas the headline changes that to the words NUCLEAR CAPACITY, which to many people would imply a useable weapon. The threat is real, but certainly not as is being presented in the article. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - I think that along with Arkady you've also got rather confused. I didn't mention Clinton...read my post again. You specifically said he was trying to appease his 'muslim constituents' (i.e. voters) whereas these are community leaders from a small community, so voters is clearly not his motivation as you explicitly said, given that they're well under 1% of the US population. You also clearly do believe him to be muslim and care about that, as you've said so numerous times...it's nice that your new position is more mature though...well done. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Certainly looks overwhelmingly like a hate crime...I assume that's what the evidence will show. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Of course blackie...as ever, the Americans, Europeans, and all of our allies are clearly anti-semitic... The facts are that the land was sold by the Israeli govt to a US businessman while it was owned by Palestinians, and while the US, and the rest of the world were telling us we couldn't sell it. It's extremely tough for people to defend things when even our closest allies are sufficiently outraged to use undiplomatic terms...I know the likes of the UK and US diplomats have used words like 'appalled' 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Kevin - apparently much of that was driven by Soviet immigrants. The figures for native ISraeli-Jews, or US-Jews were much lower. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I found the below post from another thread by Jason H (no relation) rather informative. "Mary Robinson has been critical of US for its practice in “War on Terror” and capital punishment; of Ireland for its EU only immigration policy; of China for its suppression over the Tibetans. She vigorously promote human right in general, particular the right of the less-powerful. Judging from her records, she would be a vigorous and courageous defender of the Jews when they were persecuted around the world before the state of Israel. If she has a bias, the bias is against the authority in power." 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmm...Clearly both she and Archbishop Tutu fully condemn Hamas as well, and aren't claimed to support terrorism, and they are well-respected statespeople. I get the impression that very few of the posters know the first thing about these two people or their positions other than an implication of being 'anti-Israel' from unpartisan groups like...er..AIPAC. I lived in Ireland for a while, and she's a well respected moralist and humanitarian...she just dared to criticise Israel for things in Cast Lead which many Jews, Americans, and Europeans criticise Israel for!...but then they're all just anti-semitic too... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Er...The Cairo speech, and virtually all speechs on the ME have covered Israel...and your comment about him wanting to "make the Israelis commit political suicide" is about as sane and honest as muslims claiming the US wants to take over all Arab countries... And you call OTHERS liars. Anyway, can anybody explain why a serious of public events, interviews, etc. is bad for Israel? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Typically detached, politically motivated Republican BS from Cheryl...He's not muslim, and he doesn't have 'muslim constituents; Isn't it well under 1% of the US that's muslim? And yes, it's obvious where his 'priorities are'...resolving the ME conflict. You may not agree with some of the proposals, so vote for an Israeli party who you agree with...Or rather, move to Israel first, gain citizenship, and then do so... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So Cheryl, I assume that you believe in freedom of expression for Archbishop Tutu and Mary Robinson, and that democratic dissent against a country shouldn't be used to attack any other country who chooses to acknowledge them for efforts, which have largely related to OTHER CONFLICTS? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 G-d forbid somebody who criticizes the State of Israel should be allowed to get an honor... Tutu and Robinson are well respected statespersons, and are not one-sided - clearly they are in no way supporters of terrorism, or the targetting of civilians. They've just objected to Israeli govt actions, which as a mature democracy, we should be able to accept in this country, never mind having proxies attacking our allies. That a couple of Jews are also getting awards was in the JTA headline a couple of days ago, but clearly the hardcore lobbyists are keen to suppress any criticism. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This one DEFINITELY isn't a runner. It's purely PR spin, as part of the campaign to ensure Bibi looks like a tough guy, so the right-wingers are more supportive of any concession on settlements coming up. There have been many of these ridiculous stories from Bibi's PR team recently, and clearly it won't happen. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So the US Jews - a group who overwhelmingly support Obama - were fleeing Obama??? They emigrated within 6 months of his becoming President? What garbage...US Republicans are always desperate to twist stories into propaganda. Good luck to those who have arrived. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - as ever taking her cues from 1930's Germany - I recommend that you at least try to camoflage the nature of your hatred, perhaps by making political or historical points, maybe? For the grown ups, it's quite surprising to hear Cheryl advocating giving East Jerusalem to the Palestinians... The split between the two can be used by the Palestinians to either get greater concessions out of Israel, or to prolong the conflict...the left and right-wing Israelis are clearly considerably less divided. Unity would be massively beneficial for Israel's interests, and we certainly should be trying to strengthen Fatah's hand against the militant factions. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmm...a tricky one this, as it sounds like extremely limited evidence provided by somebody in a massively compromised situation, who would benefit from claiming discrimination. At the same time, as John Q Public says above, it's likely that there is some anti-semitism in the FBI - and presumably plenty of other prejudices too...racist against blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans, etc...and you can guarantee plenty of racism against Arabs and muslims. That's why it's complex. While bigotry needs to be investigated and rooted out, I imagine the FBI is one of those organizations likely to be neither fair, nor open about such issues - particularly if they are endemic...Police are never particularly advanced on this matter, so I wouldn't expect too much of a sincere response from the FBI. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Progress has always depended upon managing the PEOPLE of both Israel and the Palestinians, as well as the other involved parties, such as the US, Europe, Turkey, the Arab States, etc. I think this is a tightrope which has been walked quite well so far, and the PR effort will certainly help. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Anyway - back in reality after Tamar/Shaul/Mussa. etc., it's an interesting point made in the media...things only tend to come out when there is a proper feud, and the slow news months are the perfect time for it. It's a shame that such feud usually need to distort points through spin as well though... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Too right. The speed and conviction with which all of our allies condemned the action was telling. I can only assume it is part of the efforts to boost how tough Bibi looks before they announce any concessions over settlements, as this is clearly something which was organized while it was recognized that it wouldn't be a long-term, or internationally acceptable military action. Most disturbingly, as well as being designed for a boost in Bibi's ratings amongst the right, and amongst potential supporters of settlers, it's also likely to be a considerable PR coup for our enemies...'IDF evacuates young families from their homes, settlers take them over within hours'... While the legality looks shaky, we don't know enough about it to fully judge, but the crucial part is that the way this was carried out is massively damaging. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PHILI:- 1) You strike me as Glenn Beck's core audience, so it's not a surprise that you get your news from an entertainer. 2) Did you disagree with either of the two stats from the survey I quoted from Haaretz? As usual, you made it sound like you disagree, without you actually having made any points to contradict them. 3) On the completely random issue you raise, a quick search suggests it has only been raised on Glenn Beck, and by bloggers on forums - if it gets to the news, I'll let you know what I think. However, the program itself has been very successful, and has been replicated in many other countries with a large level of car production. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 REPLY SENT TO VICTOR GALINDO:- "Ari H. and James Whelan: Two self described non-Anti-Semites. One flies a PAL flag and the other hates Israel. What fantastic total liars and phonies. Their comments have defined their evil racist views. Or are they merely incredibly stupid? Same thing for the Jew who is being murdered. " I don't know who the hell you are, but I suggest you learn to read before spreading outright lies. It appears you were suggesting that I fly a Pal flag...what I said was that some people in IRELAND fly Pal flag...nice work Poindexter...I recomend you reading a post before you reply to it with incorrect smears. Secondly, were you actually disputing that Ireland isn't an anti-semitic country, and if so, do you have any jot of evidence to back up that claim? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 REPLY SENT TO VICTOR GALINDO:- "Ari H. and James Whelan: Two self described non-Anti-Semites. One flies a PAL flag and the other hates Israel. What fantastic total liars and phonies. Their comments have defined their evil racist views. Or are they merely incredibly stupid? Same thing for the Jew who is being murdered. " I don't know who the hell you are, but I suggest you learn to read before spreading outright lies. It appears you were suggesting that I fly a Pal flag...what I said was that some people in IRELAND fly Pal flag...nice work Poindexter...I recomend you reading a post before you reply to it with incorrect smears. Secondly, were you actually disputing that Ireland isn't an anti-semitic country, and if so, do you have any jot of evidence to back up that claim? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - Same old same old...your rant bears no relation to mine...I don't even follow what you're saying. Are you disputing the two points I made? 1) Al Qaeda are looking a bit desperate by this stage 2) The Saudi Royals are one of the biggest enemies for Al Qaeda and other Islamist Militant groups 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 VERY selective quoting of the survey. I suggest people read a rather fuller, more accurate account:- http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1104894.html It said that half believed that those born elsewhere were not Israelis - i.e. other Jews, and the report focussed on the maltreatment and problems of former Soviet Jews in Israel. It also highlighted that the former Soviet Jews were the ones who believed in encouraging removal of Arabs from Israel - 77% supported it, compared to 47% of native Jews. There were many disturbing, and contradictory results, 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Fred - Do you know anything about Ireland, or how do you suggest that one person you don't know much about, single-handedly played a role in making an entire country anti-semitic. They're not even particularly anti-semitic (next to no anti-semitic crime, for example - and I have actually lived there, and still have Jewish friends there), but fly Pal flags given the historical parrallels in the situations. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Same old same old. They're rather struggling given the improved reputation of the US and the West in muslim countries. They're looking a bit tired, and have still used only Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Israel-Pal conflict... Incidentally Phili, as you presumably know (although it's always dangerous to 'presume' anything about how much you know), the Saudi King is usually as big an enemy of Al Qaeda and Islamists as the US is. You also know that Obama didn't 'convert'...or else other right-wingers would be using the evidence widely. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - you know though, that 'Mussa' is certainly the rather 'detached' poster Tamar / Lawrence / Pierre / Shaul / Ari Cohen...I take it you mean that you don't know this person isn't Arabic? If that's the case, their politics, posting times, and interests are certainly along the lines of highly paranoid US-Israeli Jew, albeit one who thinks everyone from Sharon to Peres is selling the country out. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The gradual lifting of restrictions in the WB has been both essential and very successful, but it's very much only the beginning. I think these small steps are the right way to do it, with each route being considered on it's own merits. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm sure I posted a comment on here...is anybody else finding the JTA servers getting a bit unpredictable? Anyway, the fact that even those who oppose homosexuality on religious grounds are participating in the uproar over these brutal killings says great things about the basic human decency of these people. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - the claim that the Healthcare bill would lead to elderly people essentially being euthanized is a really stupid blatant lie... Show me anywhere in the Western world where that happens. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is like Eastern Europe in the '70's... If a group makes clear and documented claims (details, names etc. having been available to the IDF from BtS), and you can't disprove them through facts or argument, nor can you sue them for defamation, then you make sure the govt doesn't give them any money... Not only that, but you try to tell all the other govts of the world, that THEY can't give money to whomever they please! Cheap PR spin - it's never gonna happen, and is part fo the 'look how tough Bibi is' campaign before the settlements concessions are announced. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - You know 'Mussa Aliwat' is Tamar/Lawrence/Pierre/Ari Cohen/Shaul, so you know that he/she is not an Arab... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The Milk award seems connected to the popularity of the film...certainly a great and determined man, but the award smacks of opportunism. Robinson and Tutu - they're almost universally revered...almost... It annoys me that two such people can be talked of in the same terms reserved for the outright anti-semites and racially motivated fascists. Anyway, the trinkets aren't particularly important... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is completely contrary to democracy - the democratic apparatus of state decided on this issue. If the people object, they can change their political representatives. It's also contrary to good PR - the protests went down so badly first time around, why make things worse? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Politically motivated charges from the police CAN happen, but it seems that they're extremely rare. Politicians using their power to get off on something most of us would be banged up for - that's considerably more common. Hopefully the issues will be examined in a court of law, so we can see for ourselves which category this one falls into. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As Will says, we don't have all of the facts. However, this is appalling PR on the world stage - families with young children evicted, and the Israelis move into their homes within hours - I'm sure that's golddust to our enemies. The fact that the likes of the UK and US, as well as other allies have been so quick and so damning in their criticizm suggests they also have extremely major reservations. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Bibi-s not stupid, nor is he weak. We can assume he has wrung out some kind of concessions, should this happen to be true. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili Alawal - typically deranged abuse there, and I'll give you the credit to assume that you were acting as a gentile when you were going through the anti-semitic abuse. Incidentally, as a US-Israeli, living in Israel, I am firmly in the camp of those who believe in democracy and freedom of thought. I trust in other Jews to make their own decisions on political issues, without dismissing them all as 'Uncle Toms', or of being anti-semitic and anti-Israel. Actually, my 2 line post suggested some people would come out and be stupid enough to attack US Jews, at which point you assumed I was in the US, and did exactly what I predicted!! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 2btrue - I don't know that you base your assumptions on, but you're incorrect. 'Mussa' is a long-time poster who previously called herself Tamar / Lawrence / Pierre / Shaul / Ari, and now Mussa, and is an American Jew, and apparently a woman. However, given her 'disposition' all of the other regulars just ignore her. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, there's the farcical belief that we can do whatever we like, and anybody who opposes us on any point - Jewish or not - is either anti-Israel or anti-semitic. Israel is NOT a fascist dictatorship, but some of the more consistently 'detached from reality' posters certainly believe it should be, such is the suppression of dissent. It seems that given that 80%-odd of US Jews are also against the settlements, that they're ALL self-hating Jews... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Every religion has some people who aren't necessarily bad, but whose interpretation of religion and their role in society is at odds with that of others. I'm wholly against the actions of the Haredi groups in the two situations mentioned - they're pretty indefensible. I think that all groups have to live within the laws of a democratic state, and that the Haredi shouldn't be exempt on the grounds of their seperatist religious beliefs. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE - you mentally challenged hypocrite - you did the same to me!!! You replied to my post, and I replied to yours. In fact, you replied to mine a mere one minute after I posted, making YOU the scay stalker, so grow tfu. Since you ask for a definition, the term "typically and predictably deceitful" directly implies that you exhibited willful disingenuous or dishonest arguments or representations in your post, that this is commonly the case from you, and that such consistent dishonesty could therefore be expected by others in advance of your post. Feel free to question any other words or phrases you have problems with... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - the protests and international condemnation were not about Israel "rebuilding the infrastructure of Gaza for the Arab", but allowing basic consignments through, such as food, medical supplies, and building supplies. There's no dispute that Israeli security depends on allowing Palestinian growth. There is no feasible situation where you can keep a complete stranglehold on a people, deny them simple interactions with the outside world, refuse to allow them to leave, and refuse to allow them basic building materials for education, medical and religious buildings, and then eventually have them like you more. The only purpose of blocking the food, medical and building supplies was a form of collective punishment which greatly damaged Israel, and served no purpose, and it's always been clear that it had to end at some point. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm wholly AGAINST academic boycotts. Unless they target particular academic deemed to have done something wrong, then they affect perfectly normal, innocent academics, so they're a very blunt stupid tool. HOWEVER - the use of the term 'anti-semitic' is typically and clearly ridiculous. It's 'anti-Israel', and there's not been a consistent argument for how states can become impervious to protests without it becoming about religion. Do we really want to be an Iran or a Saudi Arabia? Should objections to Cast Lead (held by many Jews too) be deemed to be an insult to the religion? It's a pretty pathetic piece of spin to call it anti-semitism. However, it is unfair, and inappropriate - as well as being very oddly timed at a period when meaningful progress is beginning to be made. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Here we go... The way the vast majority (apparently 80% from the most recent polls) disagree with settlements or the East Jerusalem situation - hate Israel, and are out to destroy it... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Blackie - your post doesn't really differ to mine, except you seem to be saying that AFTER the cache, the Lebanese army positioning themselves defensively is different from the IDF positioning themselves defensively. I didn't say anything like what you implied, which is typically and predictably deceitful. Anybody can read my post, and see what I ACTUALLY said. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Better late than never. There has been widespread condemnation and pressure from our allies on the refusal to allow rebuilding of Gaza. Although it was a pointless piece of collective punishment, clearly there is now progress, which should hopefully serve to improve our position internationally on that front. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Gena - I disagree. The reason the predominant position from political commentators is that they challenge the state is that they are not like the democratically mandated settlements (themselves obviously controversial) and are against Israeli law, hence them regularly being dismantled by the IDF. The way in which the IDF and police are attacked from these outposts serves to emphasize the point. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Not quite sure how you got from the article to debating who is occupying whom, but it's all a bit ridiculous anyway...some of the comment lack basic understanding of the ME, even on what should be a grade-school issue for JTA forums. With regards to Israel generally, various groups including Canaanites held technical sovereignty, followed by Jews for a considerable period (including under occupation) followed by Arabs for another considerable period, until the return of Jews. The fact that two remaining peoples feel entitled to the land is why there is a conflict!!! When people start arguing over whether something was 'occupied' or 'liberated' it's like a Soviet Union history department...some of the arguments over language are particularly childish. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Murderous old Neo-Nazi, crazy cat-lady Cheryl Mavrikos there...demonstrating the extent to which she had read any of the other posts... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PAUL - that's a remarkably inaccurate representation of the lead-up to the war. 1) You're acting as an apologist for a Serbian leadership overwhelmingly shown to have committeed massive atrocities, genocide, and major ethnic cleansing. That much isn't disputed, but you sought not to mention it, claiming that the war was caused by Albanian drug dealers - something everbody else seems to have missed. Sound familiar? Any sense of irony setting in yet? Were the Albanian drug dealers who caused their people to be ethnically cleansed by any chance greedy, dirty, or inferior people? 2) If you think the FBI monitoring of terrorists has been a failure, then I suggest you ring them and ask them to stop protecting you at great cost and effort....I wouldn't give you a few days, and find it amazingly insulting and ungrateful that you come on a thread about a successful series of arrests, and whinge about the FBI's performance without reason. 3) The point stands. These terrorism arrests are nothing to do with the Kosovan war, other than 1 of the 7 charged was Kosovan. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Every country has some organized crime, so before people get hysterical, it's clearly a good thing that they're being dealt with, rather than a bad thing that criminals actually exist. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 France and Canada? With Cheryl being a seriously delusional, violent old crackpot cat-lady (and I don't insult people lightly), I assume she has lacked the ability to read the article. It is the French who have made the allegations, and the Canadian University who have removed him. Must try harder. D- 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The voice of the Nazi-esque, 9/11 dancer Cheryl Mavrikos there...one of those whose Arts College, East Coast life somehow makes it okay for her to revel and glory in the deaths of others... Come to Israel Cheryl! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - so do you want much of Jerusalem to be under the control of all 3 Abrahammic religions then? That's what your logic would mean. Also, they're not even a settlement recognized by the Israeli govt or the IDF, never mind the rest of the world, and you've also ignored their attempts at sovereignty. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Outposts outside even the WB settlements are a clear provocation and challenge to the democratic state of Israel, and need to be removed. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Incidentally, some posters should have rather mixed feelings about his unacceptable comments... Many would wholly condemn his position on the US-Israel influence, and wholly agree with his similar position on Turks! Comment boards are often an irony and self-awareness free zone... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 There's been uproar in the UK about a former University lecturer who was one of the two fascists recently elected to the European parliament. Andrew Brons was a founder member of a society formed on Hitler's birthday, and firebombed Jewish property. He was arrested around 1981 while handing out leaflets and shouting "Death to Jews", and got in mainly due to the Islamophobia in his more rural area of the country. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The sentences are actually much harsher than they would have got in any other Western country. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DTM - I agree that he is innocent until proven guilty, but think that there are situations where it is inappropriate for somebody to continue in their work until allegations are investigated. I also think it only fair that it is done as quickly as possible. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Shaul/Tamar/Lawrence/Pierre/Ari Cohen/Mussa makes a point I often see from the more stupid posters... When responding to instances of pure anti-semitism and racism they often say "Well what do you expect from a German"... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is a ridiculous proposal, which will certainly NOT happen. We are a mature, democratic state, and will act like one. NOT a petty Theocracy ruled by the extremes. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - to be more frank that I have been, I've been told that there is somebody who actually literally has mental 'issues', and has posted under various names...it's rarely worth actually challenging them, and after a while, people have simply started to ignore that person under each name. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Since my initial post I've noticed the word REPORTEDLY in the headline and in the story...if it was a political protest, wouldn't he make an announcement? Puzzling... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So after it having been quiet on the Lebanon front for some time, there was the explosion of the arms cache; Israeli tanks have understandably been positioned defensively, and the Lebanese army have understandably positioned themselves defensively in response... It looks like a low-level, tokenistic stand-off. Presumably nothing will happen. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is all good publicity for Cohen, just as the lawsuits against him after the Borat film were, and clearly the comedic equivalent of a 'shock-jock' lives off this kind of controversy. It's clearly built into the planning fo the film. It only makes the complainant look worse by complaining and drawing attention to it. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The Iran issue will certainly be informally tied into the Palestinian conflict, as will Syria. There are various issues which will be dealt with through intensive negotiation. I've seen various commentators say that the situation now is that both the US and Israel are looking for a compromise on settlements so both can save face, and that will certainly come, but I'm sure Iran and Syria will come up in conversation, and I'm sure there will be horse-trading all over the board. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PAUL - You say "One must presume that the Israeli government will discipline any soldier who lies about his actions or those of others". I assume you mean that deviations from acceptable behavior should be punished, rather than that we should assume that the govt (or the IDF) will always take action themselves without pressure from the population. Also, your point about BtS is provably false. The BtS testimonies had full details of individuals, locations, examples, etc., which were available to the leadership of the IDF, provided assurances were given over the security of the sources. Saying "There's no way we can disprove them" was the IDF spin when the story emerged, and one which is clearly incorrect, and a way of muddying the waters. Incidentally, in your haste to suggest Goldstone is anti-Israel, you've also ignored his condemnation of Hamas throughout the investigation. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Annekl - Mussa is a long-time, serial poster who has 'issues'. It's always best to ignore her and her anti-semitic rants... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Protesting political issues by boycotting individuals unconnected to politics always backfires, and is a rather silly thing to do. If you look at political protests in sport, the Jesse Owens' victory was much more successful than the South African boycott. There's no moral reason why this individual swimmer should be boycotted any more than they should boycott the Iranian swimmer. It's counter-productive. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Alain - I don't follow your point...you're linking this to Kosovo and Germany's actions in the Yugoslav civil war??? The action in the former Yugoslavia was one of the most well supported actions by Western countries imaginable following the massacres and ethnic cleansing there - I'm not sure I can see your logic in relating it to this issue, other than one of these guys came from there. Anyway, since 9/11 a good job has been done in monitoring and picking up suspects within the US, for which we should all be very thankful. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The Saudi's have previously played an important role, and will do so again...although the House of Saud is rightly seen as being in the pocket of the US on the issue of the ME conflict, they still have political clout. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The Saudi's have previously played an important role, and will do so again...although the House of Saud is rightly seen as being in the pocket of the US on the issue of the ME conflict, they still have political clout. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I've disagreed with all but one of Yosef's blogs. However, that is on the grounds of accuracy. If you look at the actual content, they are to the right of you in terms of Israeli expansion; settlements etc. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PAUL WINTER:- You're on thin ice talking about prejudices, sunshine... Your use of the Official History of Australia in the war is also historically dubious, but that's irrelevant, because you've not come up with any justification anyway. Your point seems to be that you accept that civilians were massacred, but that it was partly because a British officer refused to investigate a crime??? Really, your historical revisionism, and rather desperate attempts to excuse such actions is both disturbing and hypocritical. You also say that "comments on the colonisation of Australia are quite unhelpful", and excuse that as well...yet you yourself do the same thing with Arabs on every post!!! It's another glaring piece of hypocrisy. Regardless, the point I agree with you on is clear from my post - there's not been an army who didn't commit such atrocities, and we have to judge it by those standards. However, trying so hard to justify or excuse a purposeful slaughter of civilians on the basis of nationality or religion is NEVER acceptable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL:- Fair play to you - you make no claims of adhering to morality or the principles of Judaism, or your home country the US. It would be a difficult defense to mount when rather than arguing about the issues, you've done nothing but repeatedly post rather sick jokes. I'll generously put it down to the detachment liberal college, MA life gives people on the actualite on the ground in the ME. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 EU WEI CHOI:- There must be more for you to argue in James Hovland's posts than just saying that he's a Jew who hates Israel. That 'defense' against the predominant position of US Jews seems rather weak and unsubstantiated when there are real issues and disagreements between US and Israeli Jews to debate. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, not a surprise...we knew that already... Ho hum...some big news will come along soon... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, rather a lot of stories on JTA are reiterating the clear positions we all know. I know rallies have to be reported, but we already know that, for example, right-wingers are in favor of Jerusalem being united under Israeli control; that the US, and European countries are against the settlements, etc. and so on... There are gonna be a lot of similarly dull stories in the coming months. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Mussa/Shaul/Ari Cohen - whatever you want to call yourself now - you've blamed the secret services for everything from 9/11 to the Holocaust. Are you starting to think that your work here is done, and that it may be the best use of your time to tell people on some other site your 'theories'. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 YISRAEL MEDAD:- So are you saying that any areas within Israel with an Arab majority should be under Palestinian control, as that's what the settlement argument specifically requires. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - 'Mussa Aliwat' is Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari Cohen. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yup Phili...what Nemala was laughing at was Phili Alawal's use of the third person, and Nemala also enjoyed the way rather childish and unimaginative arguments between you and others had descended into your reversion to military-speak. Nemala apologises for any distress caused SIR! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL - I'm not surprised you are so keen to watch Leni Riefenstahl films. You glory in the deaths of others, making jokes, and having fun, and yet claim to have even the slightest understanding of the basic principles of Judaism??? That reflects badly on your basic levels of self-awareness. As somebody making pancake 'jokes', I very sincerely hope that you learn a basic understanding of religious principles and repent, and that there aren't other similarly twisted idiots out there, wishing for, or enjoying the death or suffering of you, or whatever family you may have. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So everybody is aware, Mussa Aliwat is the latest incarnation of our good friend Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari Cohen... It's getting to be quite a list. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I HAD thought this thread had got off topic, with the exception of a few peoples' posts. However, it's certainly entertaining when Phili Alawal starts talking about Phili Alawal in the 3rd person (and misspelling 'Phili Alawal')...and telling people to call their "Jewish Superior Sir"!?! Very entertaining indeed! As you were... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 All conquering armies have large numbers of massacres, murders, rapes and theft - it's part of the psychological consequences of war. However, being common certainly doesn't excuse them, and they should be a matter for historical investigation. You certainly can't try to hide such atrocities. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL - you made that despicable comment yesterday, and many people lined up to point out what a despicable, immoral, murderous cretin you must be. You're no kind of Jew, and certainly no kind of Israeli or American. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Just so everybody is aware, Mussa Aliwat is the latest incarnation of our good friend Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari Cohen... It's getting to be quite a list. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Just so everybody is aware, Mussa Aliwat is the latest incarnation of our good friend Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul/Ari Cohen... It's getting to be quite a list. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MORE aggressive??? How?!? Rather like with the BtS allegations, the govt responses tend to consist solely of bluster and counter-allegations of anti-Israel bias, etc. What I would like to see is the IDF and the govt CONTRADICT claims from the report using evidence, as the usual method of simply rubbishing the report usually just makes people assume the worst. Incidentally, the UN report apparently is likely to be completely damning for both the IDF AND Hamas...claims of one-sidedness are also often used to divert attention from the findings themselves. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Remarkable, even before the key caveat:- Excludes the unauthorized outposts. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The way in which Harris and others have sought to excuse the actions which most believe to have been the murder of Rachel Corrie is despicable, and illogical. That position suggests that we should ignore any despicable actions from our own side, so long as we believe we can claim that the other side is worse. Incidentally, that's also the position of the most extreme Hamas or Hizbollah members, who when challenged on the morality of their own actions, tend to immediately hold up IDF actions in mitigation. It's not the logic which should be used by people in a moral, modern, educated democracy, where dissent should be nurtured and respected. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 KELLEY LYNCH (if it is really you)...in the interests of balance, I should point out to readers that your position on LC after 17 years as his manager is largely based on the legal battle between you - one in which a court found that you'd stolen many millions of dollars from him. In fact, LC alleged in court that you'd stolen around $9.5m from him, and the court found in his favor, while you refused to return various items of his belongings, as was also recognized by the court, but apparently you have not responded to a subpoena. If you have any belief that you've been wrongly judged guilty of massive theft, feel free to take it up with the legal system. If you believe LC has perjured himself, then again, report it appropriately. What would be pathetic would be to come onto boards spreading unsubstantiated rumors about somebody you were found guilty of stealing a massive amount of money from. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As Yosef's article says, the push is coming from several MPs from the 'Friends of Israel' grouping - mainly Jewish, and of impeccable credentials. While I don't personally think it will happen in the forseeable future, it's not some pro-Hamas agenda, but rather is lead by pro-Israel politicians who think it will lead to better outcomes. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 "Shas supports settlements, shocker!" Really, I'm getting tired of the news being full of people simply reiterating the position we know that they hold... In the case of the slightly mad leader of Shas, the quotes above are not surprising - he could have phrased them so they sounded less crazy though. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Well clearly - it's been the official position for several years... Any more interesting news??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Idiots! Let them spend their own money building outposts, and make sure they're bull-dozed as soon as they've finished. I'm tired of these people holding the democratic will of the State of Israel to ransom through their antics...you can be sure that they will do something explicitly illegal and against the will of the government; then attack the IDF, and little or no action will be taken against them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I agree with Yosef on this one. It's not like the US have JUST STARTED opposing settlements, nor is it something which will break up one of the strongest relationships between nations around the world. However, we are too dependent, so overtures to Brazil, Russia, China, Europe etc. are important for the future - they'll also depend on improving our image internationally though. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The thing is, if the media thinks your plight will be popular with the general public, then they focus on the issue. If they think the issue isn't going to get enough attention, they lead on the small minority in EVERY protest who were acting violently, and they loop the one or two clips of something innane, such as somebody shouting angrily, as a way of ratcheting up interest in the story. On that point Avi is right - the majority of the Haredi and Orthodox protestors were peaceful, which was under-emphasized in the press. However, the unacceptable minority were a much higher proportion than in many protests where much harsher police actions have been taken, and they were certainly at an unacceptable level. You can hardly complain when after a particularly raucous protest, reports lead with headlines about people being physically attacked, beaten and threatened, rather than "thousands protest peacefully" - I'm sure you would be outraged if that's how the media reported a violent protest by a group you disagree with. On the issues themselves, I disagree with Avi, and the protestors in both cases. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The battle for ideas is important, and greater understanding by the Chinese of the ME conflict is crucial. They're also the superpower of the future, and so Jewish visibility there will also bring positive results in the future. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yosef - Again, I've not found any instances in which Azzam Tamimi was described by the BBC as a 'moderate'... In fact, quite the opposite...I found a large number of investigative journalism pages from the BBC saying that while he had condemned terrorism around the world, he still, as a Palestinian, supported it against Israel as the only form of fighting the conflict. So the BBC HAVEN'T to my knowledge described him as a 'moderate', from what I can see - they have actually investigated and condemned him regularly, such as on the links below. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1823045.stm news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4681857.stm You're clearly a very active blogger, but I have to say that I've followed your blog closely, and you really need to have much higher levels of accuracy...I don't think you've had a blog so far which hasn't had a similarly glaring error in it's main premise. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stoney / Phili:- Let me put the issue in a more sane way:- US Jews don't all fully accept the settlements...you do, and they and the US govt disagree with you - the US and European govts all have for over 40 years. That DOESN'T support your rather mad suggestions that US Jews are part of a push to lead to "the Jewish state's demise"... That's a ridiculous, and insulting attack on other Jews, without any substance. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 CHERYL MAVRIKOS - "she and her mother are shameful creatures" "Rachel Corrie deserved her fate, and the organization she represented, ISM, should all have a taste of the same set of Goodyears that Rachel did" "Instead of the film festival, they ought to host a “Rachel Corrie Pancake Breakfast” " ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDWARD ROSENBLATT:- "Rachel Corrie died aiding and abetting Hamas. She was a terrorist and should have been shot on sight" ------------------------------------------------------------------- KR:- "Rachel Corrie is an excellent Darwin Award candidate and should be awarded the prize immediately! " -------------------------------------------------------------------- Try reading any of the above pieces of bile and historical revisionism, and then try to square them with the basic principles of Judaism, or of Israel as a state....or of basic morality for that matter. Although I'm often against such dramatic analogies unless they directly apply, the people above are ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT to the Hamas lead Jew haters, or the 1930's Nazi supporters who could dismiss any immoral action from an individual on their own side, through their hatred of the opposition. Basic morality means that when the evidence overwhelmingly shows an act of immorality from an individual on your own side, you condemn them fairly, rather than being an apologist, purely on the basis of childish tribalism along racial or religious lines... However, it's nice to see that the vast majority of posters - including many who disagree completely on many issue - are united in condemning this action, and are not running about shouting that this Jewish Film Festival is some kind of anti-semitic attempt to attack Israel...those claims are so delusional as to certainly be the product of an unhinged, unstable mind. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yosef - as ever I find your suggestion to be possibly willfully misleading. Iran is high up the agenda, and is something most of the Western world is now working much more closely together on. As you know, a US Pres slamming the leadership of Iran would only benefit them hugely, allowing them to make it an issue of their nation being under attack. Therefore again your main point is clearly incorrect. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sammy - I have to fully disagree with you on the Israeli govt. I'm no fan of the current incumbents (or any of the politicians) but the claims from many posters that the Israeli govt is out to "deceive" the population, and are actually somehow against Jewish Israelis is clearly farcical. It's not surprising that they consider the loss of territory as a disaster...to expect otherwise is also quite insane. What IS important is that it's not used in textbooks or taught in a way as to encourage religious hatred or resentment. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The aim is completely right, but clearly the first steps are to make links and some progress on the issues with the Pals (mainly in the WB - not with Hamas) and also with Syria, both of which could undermine Hamas. Only then would there be likely to be progress with the Arab League as a whole. Clearly those have been the areas Obama has focussed on, and I think that's right. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 In Northern Ireland there is a strong identification with the ME conflict, and the Northern Irish Catholic population have a long history of flying Palestinian flags and campaigning for human rights for Pals, etc. given the analogous situations. Indeed, that Nobel Laureate on the Gaza aid ships was Irish. I think taking issues out on artists is unreasonable and counter-productive. For example, political issues have unfairly resulted in boycotts of sporting teams from the likes of Zimbabwe or Pakistan, when it's not the guilty who suffer, but the general population. I can understand the protests against products from settlements which are sold throughout N.Ireland, but by protesting against the thoughtful and humanistic Leonard Cohen (my hero) for having played to a group of Israelis in Tel Aviv (plenty of whom would have agreed with them on Pal rights, settlements, Cast Lead, etc.) I think they've been wrongheaded. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's a tricky issue, as these books will get a hell of a lot more publicity from this action than they would have at #892,000 on the German Amazon's sales charts... However, at least this time it's more serious than that artist's gnomes from last week... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 An article on JTA a couple of days ago spoke of a Hamas-sponsored play acted by women, where one of the jokes was a Hamas militant claiming to have hit Tel-Aviv, which got a big laugh from the Palestinian audience. I don't think anybody believes this jingoism from Hamas, or Hezbollah...it's PR spin, rather like Saddam's attempts to suggest he was more powerful than he was. It's clearly garbage. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Although Hamas have been moving towards a PR offensive of victimhood, I would still be surprised if the US or European countries talked to them directly in the near future - it would be too risky politically. I wouldn't be surprised if they had more indirect communications though, as all of the pundits, ex Secretaries of State, and non-serving politicians seem to be pushing the importance of engagement, even if it's frosty. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Leland - ADL say it is one the decrease GENERALLY - i.e. over a wider area and time. This Jewish Community group have documented this huge increase over a period of one year, and in one country, and put it down to Cast Lead, as almost all of the incidents were over a couple of months. The two are not contradictory as they may seem. No statistical trend is absolute, and applies to all areas, all of the time. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Terrible how people can take out anger over actions like Cast Lead on innocent civilians, or translate it into religious hatred... ....I was seriously thinking that for a few seconds before I noticed the glaring irony of the posters on this thread who routinely do the same themselves...and are even doing it now! Britain has been a good and important ally to Jews throughout the past century - whether you look at the Balfour declaration, or WWII. This increase is hugely depressing, but it's not really surprising...as this Jewish Community report says, Cast Lead has been damaging for the diaspora, much as happens with all minorities. Hopefully there will be a brighter report next year... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 There's a major PR battle over the use of aid since Cast Lead, and it's crucial that we come out on the right side of that. According to the article, this claim appears to be incorrect, but I wouldn't be so sure...I assume there's SOME pressure, but members of food distribution groups are always more than keen to publicize and play up any limits placed on their activities. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yup...you usually deny racism though Will... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I see no point in sanctions. The options outside of a military strike are based around stopping the LEADERSHIP from having finances abroad...stopping the LEADERSHIP from having any dealings with foreign countries...those are the only sanctions that would be reasonable. However, most of the effort is in political diplomacy and horse-trading. Wider sanctions against the very people risking their lives to overthrow arotten leadership only allows Ahmadinejad to get more of them behind him. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Mussa - again, that's a Shaul / Ari Cohen - style piece of unsubstantiated paranoia. Economic pressure has clearly been raised as an issue many times over the years, and is often used by the US to imply greater control over Israel economically than it actually has 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Alex Golan - your position is extremely one-sided to the point of historical revisionism. I have no idea how you've linked the actions of Jews in Eretz Israel prior to WWII to the outcome of the holocaust, but I find that massively distasteful and disrespectful to their memory. "Those who fought against the Nazis and their British henchmen (i.e. Anthony Eden etc.)" again shows a truly massive lack of basic knowledge of history - which I wouldn't mind were it not for the fact that your post was about chiding somebody else for not knowing their history! I can only assume you mean Chamberlain, but even then your representation of the situation is massively historically inaccurate. If you were talking of 'Nazi henchmen' it would be the Axis powers...I would suggest your representation of this period of history is based on who you want to attack, rather than what actually happened. Finally the position of "if they want peace why didn't they accept what we offered them" is clearly an extremely weak argument trotted out by both sides...why didn't we accept any deals offered? BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T SATISFACTORY TO US! This is a particularly glaring case of partisanship coming ahead of the actualite of the situation. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hillel - I agree completely...ideally that would have been the best possible outcome for all involved, and the security of the city of Jerusalem. However, all chances of such an agreement have I think declined...no political leaders on any side would have the political capital (or the bravery) to agree to such a deal now. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The claim that it's about RELIGION rather than SOVEREIGNTY is one of the more deceitful narratives in the press at the moments, and is designed to muddy the waters on the issue of disputed territories. Jeff Jacoby (and others) clearly know that this is not the case - it's one of the more blatant and shameful cases of outright deceit and manipulation. What's frightening is that there's a minority of people who lack the intelligence to see the difference between THEIR OPINION being that Jerusalem should be united, and Jerusalem NOT BEING DISPUTED TERRITORY. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Mussa - are you seriously suggesting there is a lack of representation of Jews in America??? Seriously??? It's about 1.5% of the population, who make up the majority of execs and entertainment funding, as well as a very large proportion of the most successful actors, directors, etc. We have excelled ourselves on that front, which is one of the reasons why Jews are so visible as a minority in the US - thanks to the efforts of the entertainers. It helps to make others aware of our traditions, viewpoints, and history. There are actually plenty of films about in muslim countries (even though they tend to watch Hollywood), so your logic in suggesting that we're somehow missing a trick on this, on the basis of seeing that there is a film from Iran is extremely flawed logic. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The efforts to suggest the settlement issue (live amongst all of the Western world since '67) are about religion, or ethnic cleansing are part of a clear narrative of spin, which is clearly untrue. It's about sovereignty, and I'm going to keep saying it. If it's racism, and that's so bad, then let a few million Pals into Israel until they're the majority...you wouldn't want to be racist would you??? Clearly the settlement issue is about CONTROL of lands, and so the claims that it's about religion are ridiculous. It says something when the only defense left is that the entire Western World (incl. all of our allies) have held a wholly anti-semitic policy for the past 40 years. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Mussa - I think the most dangerous response is to make statements like "The charges against the Rabbis are obviously false". Clearly we'd all like that to be the case, but this is a major investigation, and I frankly don't buy that it's all a conspiracy to attack this Syrian Jewish community - that's the response which came from certain groups to the mother with Munchausens by proxy, and look how crazy that was. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 So there weren't enough left-wing Jewish groups there??? I can guarantee that the US Reps on the boards will still selectively claim that they're the only ones being involved in things in the US. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ben Klein - again implying that US Jews or moderate Jews are out to destroy Israel. They're not Neturei Karta. You're suggesting the J-Street belief in little more than '67 borders is some kind of act of treachery, which is rather hysterical. Also, you're on extremely shaky ground when you talk of 300,000 Jews being 'forced out of their homes', when the vast majority of US Jews and the rest of the Western world are against the settlements, built as they are on disputed territory...in other words, you're more than happy to force others out of their homes. I hugely dislike the level of distortion used to provoke in-fighting between Jewish groups at a time when a more honest acknowledgement of differences of opinion would be much more beneficial for Israel. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Gary and Phili - Again, the way of dealing with the E.Jerusalem issue is to claim it's about bigotry against Jews. It's clearly and provably not - it's about the spread of Israeli sovereignty into internationally disputed territory, so whether or not people believe Jerusalem, or the rest of the post '67 gains should be Israeli territory, the objections from the rest of the Western world aren't about religion...to suggest so is misrepresenting them as backing apartheid policies, which is a nice spin, but clearly a lie. Incidentally, contrary to another common misapprehension, there is not even a hint of equality in who is allowed to buy property in either East or West Jerusalem, nor in who gets building permits. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1102561.html 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE:- Typical lies and hypocrisy, sunshine... 1) "I never said that david hicks was or wasn’t Australian". Yes you did - as well as your soccer terms, and talking about how an 'Islamic Caliphate' was taking over his country, you also said "If only your once-proud/now empire-less nation could win the World Cup". Tehrefore you clearly suggested he was British, and to claim otherwise is farcical deceit. 2) "I never said that B. Hussein Obysmal is a Muslim" Again, nobody will buy that, given that you've directly implied it in pretty much every post where you've mentionned him, with "Barak HUSSEIN Obama" being followed with comments about how he was working as a spy, or to spread an Islamic Caliphate...another piece of deceit from you. Incidentally, he didn't "hide" his middle name, but clearly didn't publicize it, given that it's all that overt racists like you have to go on, and yet you're still carping on, implying that he's muslim and some kind of Manchurian candidate. 3) To claim Jerusalem is not a DISPUTED city is ridiculous, and shows your lack of basic English comprehension, Poindexter. What you MEAN to say is that you believe it should be united, and entirely Israeli, which would be fine, and would make sense. To say it's not DISPUTED would mean that the whole world agrees with you on that point. 4) That Jeff Jacoby piece suggested apartheid policies on the part of the US...as I said, it spoke of religion, and ignored the issue of sovereignty - a point which was made countless times in the comments. 5) Very brave of the big, ultra-aggressive bully, to have the nerve to act hurt when somebody else criticizes one of his/her posts!!! Your posts are mainly responses to other people's, so the beginning of your post (like the rest) is complete BS! HAVE A NICE DAY! XX 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Irmgard - I appreciate the reply, and looking back, my reply to you was worded ambiguously. However I understood your position - that it was Obama et al who were making the 'assault' on Israel, but that the "ultimate cowardice of our stupid American Jewish leaders" made the US Jewish public complicit. However I strongly disagree. I think that we have to acknowledge that the opinions of the majority of US Jews have been shown to be against settlements or excessive expansion, and in favor of a 2-state solution. This is being presented as stupidity or indifference, when in fact it's a democratic process. US Jewish communities disagree with right-wing Israeli thought, and people need to get used to that. There's also the defense that any criticizm of Israel is dangerous, anti-semitic, or an 'attack on Israel', by Obama or US Jews...again, I don't agree with that in any way. I would also say that I think the US Jewish community is extremely strong, and largely united (much more so than any other US community, I would argue)...it's just that their ideas on how Israel's security are different to those of the right in Israel. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that proponents of right-wing proposals were being in any way reckless or indifferent about Israeli security - however I would say that they may INADVERTANTLY damage national security. I think that's the basic level of maturity the perception of US Jews and their sincere positions needs to rise to. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I notice that the novelty value of Rabbis having been arrested has made them more high profile in reports from other countries, but then that's the way it goes. I wouldn't say it's fuelled by anti-semitism. It will probably fuel greater suspicion of Rabbis and Jewish organizations. However, the important thing is that we're seen to be keen to clear things up...there's nothing worse than a group of people defending or harboring crooks or criminals to protect the image of a religion...look at the Catholic Church! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - you're right to try to keep some decorum on the boards, but I think a personal attack on blackie is fully justified, as I've not seen a comment by him/her which hasn't been a personal attack, much fiercer than mine, usually with swearing. In the past couple of days when I've commented on his posts, or personally attacked him, he acts all innocent and naive!!! This guy's hilarious. And I'm sure you've noticed, but I'm certainly not pacifistic on the boards. I've got into regular scraps - but get bored of the more childish ones quite quickly. Incidentally, I'm certainly not pacifistic generally either...I think on most issues I think more pragmatically about the potential downsides of military action, and the limitations, as well as believing that high moral standards are essential to the success of a state. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sure, the govt and pro-govt groups aren't going to whoop with delight when a critic of their human rights and treatments of Pals gets an award, but the level of hysteria and smear is totally out of proportion to what I can find her having done. Other than heavily criticizing the direction the state of Israel took, what has she done? She doesn't seem to be against the EXISTENCE of the State of Israel - she's not from Neturei Karta. From the story yesterday, it seems like Einstein would have been treated exactly the same were his views known at the time. This old woman is a holocaust surviving Israeli, who has opposed mistreatment of Pals...she hasn't always been right, but it's not like she's anything other than a democratic dissenter, which seems to be something some people are incapable of dealing with. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BLACKIE:- Aww...has the big bully hurt feelings? Aww... You can add being a massive delusional hypocrite to that list, as your posts are nothing but personal abuse and bile. I've stated my pretty moderate opinion on the security fence (It staying, but possibly some rerouting to get concessions elsewhere), and you came back with a post including:- "“Ari H” (does the H stand for Hamas or Hizbullah?), You and your bottomfeeding, genocidal, terroristic Pali buddies can “address the issue”." For you of all 'people' to be reporting comments is laughable, given that I've scarcely seen you post without including regular derogatory, racist abuse. You'll also notice that the post you have apparently reported is about 70% a comparison of our two positions on an issue. I recommend you start off by working up to 10% of your bilious hatred being on an issue, and build up from there...and stop swearing. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 We get it! You're all against the settlements! So that's North America, most of South America, Russia, China, almost all of Europe, and many other African and Asian countries through the UN. To be fair, they've been against the settlements since '67 - it's just that this is one of the sporadic groundswells of vociferousness. Didn't France already make it clear though? Is it going to be a news story every time a Western country raises their objections to the settlements again? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm very much with Will and Leland on this one. These protestors, organizing harrassment of sponsors and organizers of a Jewish Film Festival have no case at all. What they are claiming is that any introspection within the Jewish community is anti-Israel and anti-semitic. And that's when a JEWISH FILM FESTIVAL shows it!!! There's no way somebody outside the religion could dare to raise an issue which we all know happened without receiving worse! They are acting like the most militant muslims, where examination of even a clearly legitimate issue is dismissed as being based on bigotry. Any time all dissent has been suppressed in such a way we have rightly recognized it as being unhelpful (Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Iran, etc.). That it should be happening within the US is truly shameful, and these people have no basic understanding of the shared democratic principles of the US and Israel, nor of what makes those countries powerful, and just. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Irmgard - A "direct assault on Israel"? And it's the fault of US Jews and Jewish Leaders? Really - I think we need to be realistic about the situation. US Jews ARE NOT the enemy. They DO NOT hate Israel, nor are they knowingly or unknowingly destroying it. They just disagree on the status of E. Jerusalem, which is still contested. The efforts to portray the US and US Jews as being some great danger to Israel have been quite blatant in the past couple of months. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 blackie - Isn't David Hicks Australian? Regardless, you came close to making a point, albeit an hysterically detached one. There's good reason why the more serious, respected commentators don't talk as you do...it's because they tend to dismiss the more extreme propaganda and hysteria about how 'Obama is a muslim, and is out to destroy Israel'. Also, the Jeff Jacoby Op-Ed you refer (a link somebody put on yesterday) was completely pillioried by numerous Jews and Israelis, as you'll see from the comment section. It talks of E. Jerusalem as if it is not disputed territory, and suggests that the US is implementing apartheid systems there on the grounds of religion, which is clearly untrue - it's an issue of sovereignty. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's in situations like this when somebody with diplomatic skills greater than those of Lieberman could hugely benefit international relations. Brazil are a big player, and will be increasingly important on the world stage in coming decades. Somebody like a Peres or Bibi visiting them would have a chance of building a relationship...with Lieberman we can only hope. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I agree with you completely - the New Testament's principles are wholly against the excesses of more hardline, right-wing economic and social theories. That said, I know some more center-right Christians (as well as Jews) whose political and religious beliefs are well matched, but it's the more extremely right-wing Evangelicals where I think there's a disconnect. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yosef - Again, as I'm sure you're aware, the issue is one of sovereignty. The PR line which implies that the E. Jerusalem development is on undisputed Israeli territory, and is being stopped as some kind of apartheid has been widespread, and is clearly and demonstrably false. It's part of the scrambling anti-American campaign to paint issues as being about Jews being discriminated against, rather than the transfer of sovereignty. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Blackie - Y'know how you have an image of what somebody may be like from their posts? Well yours suggest a ranting, red-faced, spitting, delusional, neo-Nazi wingnut...but then I imagine your elderly mom coming in with cookies for you, and feel nothing but pity. I SAID: That the fence would stay for the forseeable future as it works, but that the sections built on privately-owned Pal land would probably be rerouted as sop to the US and Europe, to buy political capital, and get better concessions elsewhere. YOU SAID: Nothing but your mentally disturbed abuse. I love you really Blackie x x 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Arkady - 'Mediator' doesn't mean neutral. Who do you see as being neutral??? Certainly not the US, Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, UK, France, etc. I'm sure you haven't risen the same complaint with the US as a mediator for the past few decades! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ben Klein - if your position is "200,000 Jews live in Judea and Samaria" - implying that it should no longer be considered to be disputed territory, then clearly you can see why the US and Europe have always been against the way settlements have been used over the decades to ensure sovereignty transfers to Israel! You can't have it both ways. Also, given that muslims make up virtually none of the US electorate (0.8% of population), but are the big bogeymen for the rest of the population, clearly his Israel position isn't aimed at gaining muslim votes. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 DACON9 - As you say, people have a "way of altering things according to their new perceptions" and I think that's what you may have done here. This is Sharon's negotiator...why would he lie about it? If anything, he has every reason to say THE OPPOSITE of what he has said. It's also has the most detail of what was discussed I have seen. There has been a large-scale anti-American effort to limit the effects of their and Europe's pressure, and much of this story of an 'agreement' is exactly that kind of spin. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 blackie - Let me use Phili's method to get this through your thick, bitter, racist exterior:- YOU CRITIQUED ANOTHER COMMENT - SMART*SS, SO YOU CAN'T COMPLAIN WHEN SOMEBODY DOES IT TO YOURS...ESPECIALLY WHEN YOURS IS A TYPICAL 1930'S GERMANY-STYLE RANT! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yosef - the story on your link is based on either a major misunderstanding, or a lie. The correspondent's point is that if Breaking the Silence wanted to maintain the morality of the IDF, and ensure that their rules were applied, then they would have made details available, as investigation isn't possible without them. In fact, if you read any of the reports, they've said the details will be made available to the IDF, provided the security of the sources is maintained. Incidentally, I looked up the BBC report, and it only presents the report as 'allegations', so again you're incorrect in your claim. I'd also like to know why you think so many former soldiers are out to "defame Israel" 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Amiel - If you think that calling for troops to act like the gang of street-thugs from this presenters youth, and to torture and beat any soldier who reveals illegal or immoral actions is a way to "challenge...the monopoly of the left", then you either lack basic comprehension of English, or basic morality. You do realise, that you're supporting the position that any troop who participates in a campaign to maintain the IDF's moral standards should be beaten? You realise that your position is the same as, say, that of the Chinese or old Soviet govts? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Whata truly appalling, immoral thing to do. If they keep their jobs, it'll be preferential treatment...most people going on the radio and saying that somebody should be targetted and beaten wouldn't be turning up the next morning... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Meridor's anti-American spin is spinning out of control. It's clear that Clinton was saying "No point trying to get them, cos we'll stop you if you try". Meridor is now trying to spin this as Clinton saying "They can have them, and we'll deal with it". I'm sure that's the third major lie we've had from him in a week. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Tourism's a big draw for the economy, and marketing can certainly ramp up our share of the market - even during the economic downturn. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Blackie - a bit of advice... When you're trying to take the moral highground with somebody and call them a bigot, it would be best to hold back on the bitter racism. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - clearly that's untrue...I assume that you do know the basics of the situation, but have chosen to misrepresent them. Clearly the issue is one of SOVEREIGNTY rather than religion, and relates to EAST JERUSALEM. Incidentally, the link also - entirely disingenuously - pretends that the issue is one of religion. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - leaving the rest of the post aside, how would you address the issue of the sections which were built on private Palestinian-owned land? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Removal of the fence is certainly not a political 'goer' in the near future, although clearly it will come down eventually. However, at some point some of the more contentious sections will have to be re-routed - certainly a couple of those wholly in privately owned Palestinian lands. This will certainly have been known since it was being planned, and presumably is no more than a negotiating chip, to be able to say - "Look - see the changes we've made" when it is rebuilt back on Israeli territory. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Such a move would not only allow diversion of some of the US/European pressure, and encourage the restorations of ties with Turkey. However, I'm not sure the general public would accept negotiation on more than one front at a time, so while it would be beneficial, I don't agree that dealing with more than one issue at once is politically possible. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - I saw my 'name' and read a little of one of your posts. The problem is that in response to my 2-line post, you seem to have taken the line of "Jews made Jerusalem their capital long ago"... Well that's true, but we weren't the first to claim control of it - arguably the Canaanites were, so that can't be the basis for claiming all of it. We're claiming it on a similar principle to how Christians and Muslims have so many times over the centuries. As you know, I responded to Will's suggestion that Arabs had no need for Jerusalem, and only wanted it so that Jews couldn't have it. If you have a response to that rather uncontentious point I made, feel free to let me know. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ah yes Phili - Will and I are almost indistinguishable in our opinions... However, only when it comes to the issue of the sanity of your posts... I also enjoy when you enter long arguments with random non-sequiters, and then at the end claim that 'there's no arguing with those on the left'.... Oh the irony... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yaakov - I very strongly disagree with the narrative being promoted by the Eda Haredit and their supporters. There are various clearly untrue suggestions that the child was being snatched for medical tests; that the mother was likewise being used for testing; that it was all a plot to subtley undermine ultra-Orthodox groups; that they withdrew cancer treatment, etc. All of these are wholly delusional claims (not that you were making all of them yourself) as there is no vaguely rational motive for such a large conspiracy amongst medical and government staff. Instead we've seen large groups of people attacking police and medical staff on behalf of a mother whose child certainly APPEARS to have been mistreated in some way, for whatever reason - given their weight. No social services personnel tend to take such decisions lightly, and I find it disturbing that this tragic case can be used byas a political tool to justify violent anarchist attacks. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's no surprise that they are against the policy on settlements. However, there are several ways in which they are distorting the US' position:- - The US and Europe have been against the settlements, (incl East Jerusalem) all the way back to '67. - Their opposition to the demolition of Arab properties is that as is accepted, official permits to build have been routinely denied to Arabs in E. Jerusalem...this group suggests a double standard, despite two hugely different situations. - The 'appropriate authorities' they refer to are not acknowledged as the 'appropriate authorities' by the international community - i.e. Israeli local government in a disputed territory. This is just more of the same distorted PR which will continue as part of the campaign to wring more concessions out of the US and Europe on their mediation in the conflict...it's even some of the more transparent PR, due to the glaring logical inaccuracies in their press release...perhaps they SHOULD have consulted their constituent groups first... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ari Cohen - That's been your standard response throughout your personality metamorphoses...when you were Tamar / Pierre / Lawrence / Shaul, and now Ari Cohen... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Allyson's 'Z-Street' organization would be a strange choice for representing US Jews, given that a co-founder said they were a "hardline, right-wing, nationalist, orthodox organization". The fact is that they wouldn't represent the majority of US Jews...in fact their charter is almost entirely dedicated to attacking other Jews who disagree with them. I agree that Z-Street is a pointless splinter of the ZOA, which weakens the Zionist argument. At a time when unity amongst Jews is crucial, there seems to be nothing but in-fighting. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Clearly the demilitarization would only be workable in the short-term - i.e. for about a decade, until the international community and Israel could be assured that security services had developed sufficiently. On the economics, as Blair repeated recently, well over 50% of the WB's economy is suppressed through largely unneccessary restrictions on movement, which Blair suggested were being used as a political tool rather than just for security. So long as the govt retains the right to essentially destroy the economy through even a slight tightening of these crippling restrictions, it's hard to see why anybody would invest. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Anyway - the link between right-wing Evangelicals has mainly risen in the past few decades as a result of the growth of Evangelicalism in the US. It's a fiercely political movement, whose belief in the rapture is well known. However, it's also fiercely Republican, and very much the right-wing of Republicanism, so it's no surprise that Hagee dislikes Obama. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 2btrue - I notice you have only just set up your account today - welcome to the site. Can you direct me to a link of where Obama "stated while campaigning that Jerusalem should not be divided", as I'm not aware of that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Melvyn - the clear difference is that the Palestinians given leave to remain in Jordan are considered to have come from territories outside the boundaries of Jordan presently, hence the difference. Clearly, as the Jordanians have said, they are not going to weaken the Palestinian case. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I for one stopped reading Phili's delusional, detached rants some time ago. They never make any sense, or follow any kind of logic...AND the use of CAPITALS at IRREGULAR INTERVALS can be VERY ANNOYING! However, I did very much enjoy that he spend a couple of weeks regularly attacking Eric Fingerhut of JTA, before somebody pointed out that he had the wrong Eric Fingerhut... His mature response? To say that he would probably have got the same answer out of both of them anyway! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 A typically disturbing, overtly and unashamedly racist, fascistic rant from Tom there... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As the article says, there's little doubt that the settlers generally give as good as they get. It's also not surprising, given the controversial nature of the settlements even amongst our closest allies, and many Israelis. Nonetheless, as the article also says, attacks have decreased dramatically over the past year, even though the expansion of settlements has accelerated. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I would have to disagree with your rather contentious claim that there is no reason for Arabs to want East Jerusalem. It's rather like if an Arab said there was no reason for the Jews to want it. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think everybody essentially agrees that their response to this case has been disgusting, and unacceptable. Were they to have committed to peaceful, but high-profile protests, then people would have still disagreed with them, but responded without the same zeal to protect the democratic state of Israel from these anarchists. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 HAHA - Arkady - nice way of covering the fact that you've been bashing the wrong Eric Fingerhut for a couple of weeks! David - Claiming Obama is antisemitic, or that he isn't bothered by Iran's nuclear push, are both claims which are farcical, and completely contradicted by the real world. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 David - It's worth noting that Cantor made the speech to the Evangelical-lead 'Christians United for Israel' - a group to whom the term 'Judeo-Christian' is very powerful. You're absolutely right on the role of religion in the founding of the US, and I think it's also worth noting that the US is much more religious than pretty much all of the rest of the developed world - religion is certainly much more entwined with politics than the rest of the developed world. Whats more, the trends are towards atheism, and certainly secularism. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I agree with the posters who see it as a rather foolish ZOA splinter group. There's already enough division amongst Jews when so many (such as a couple on this thread, and Z-Street's early statements) spend much of their time attacking other Jews and Jewish groups as if they were collaborators, rather than debating the best way to achieve common goals. It's a quite immature, nationalistic approach which such aggressive groups tend to take, and I notice no proposals for paths of action for Israel within Z-Street's announcements. As for the initial post by Allyson from Z-Street - the organization is clearly not just about Iran as you suggest, which you would see if you had read the Charter...a bit of PR 'spin' there I would suggest... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Of course it's tenser than it has been - the US has long held reservations, but never actually applied any pressure about any of them...the same goes for most of Europe. However, they're still our strongest ally, and probably always will be. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wow...the headline could be "Powerful man may get punished for something - Shocker"! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Two key phrases which just sum up how politics works:- "I'll be "Israel's Greatest Ally" "Kirk is not Jewish, but...represents the heavily Jewish northern suburbs of Chicago". 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Yet the government also acknowledges that it was due to remove a large number of outposts, or to stop the development of others following similar agreements with Bush, which were also unconditional. You can't really pick and choose which elements of these 'informal agreements' you follow. JTA prints an awful lot of direct government quotes and spin... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1101796.html 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Presumably this is some kind of trade off so that any settlement agreement is more favorable. It also may be an effort to show sincerity to the US and European administrations that are applying so much pressure over the settlements. That, presumably, is the main reason they haven't been evacuated yet, when it was agreed to do so over 5 years ago. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 LISA - I don't know who you are - apparently after 3 years this is the first story you've deigned to post about - but you've clearly made up both of the quotes you've given. Therefore while you attack Ari Cohen, YOUR post also lacks relevance. My point was that the extreme quotes from partisan sources, and the headline "critic of Israel" are quite a distortion, very different to other Israeli media outlets, and lead me to expect something other than an elderly Israeli Holocaust survivor, who simply opposed injustices by representing Palestinians as a lawyer. Democracies around the world herald those who oppose injustice, as it keeps their own side moral and mature...it seems you think such people are "against Israel". Now if you can manage a second post, you may wish to make some kind of opposing point. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It turns out I was wrong to suggest Bibi was right in what he DID say, but that it wasn't the issue. He was DEMONSTRABLY WRONG in what he said:- http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1101682.html Although East Jerusalem Arabs could rent apartments in West Jerusalem, the ILA's rules would prevent them from buying them, as they don't have citizen status. In other words, in a disputed and divided city, people from one side can easily buy land on the other, but the others can only rent land on the other side, and not buy, ensuring the gradual spread of sovereignty that even our closest allies finds unacceptable! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The Haaretz story is extremely different in tone from that on JTA as you'd expect, with much firmer factual statements. This was a group of settlers, removed from outposts the Israeli govt sees as illegal, who responded by breaking the law further, riding around on horseback with torches, destroying farms and crops and attacking civilians. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I think you've misunderstood...and I'm not sure I follow what you mean. I was clearly suggesting that 83yo lady Ari Cohen may be the latest nom de plume of our good friend Shaul, as a higher number of his posts had been removed for breaking the rules recently, and there is suddenly somebody who posts the same things - one or two sentences at the beginning of each thread; uses the same words for Olmert; has talked of Israeli bureaucrats as spies...and that's all in one day. Ironically, Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul, and now Ari Cohen are the only people I've seen who've used the 'word' 'coinkydink'! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 People will always be understandably suspicious. Whether politican or businessman, it seems charges are only brought against powerful people when the evidence has reached a higher threshold than for us plebs. Then there is still a much higher chance of charges being dropped. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 BTW everybody - I think it's quite safe to assume that Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul has found a new identity - as an 83 yo woman called Ari Cohen. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ah Ari...I notice you set up your post today...quite a few of Shaul's posts have gone missing today, including the rather serious one mocking Ariel Sharon. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Good to see that the majority of posts are rather saner than Mr Cohen's. Sadly there is a long history of the olive trees being destroyed by the settlers, and the timing fits in with the Haaretz story...1,500 trees sounds like a large scale act of provocation, both to the Pals and the govt. That the response to such acts, and to civilians being stoned is so muted is morally disturbing...were roles reversed at least one of the perpetrators would have been shot dead by now. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Paul Winter and Blackie are remnants of the regular posters who never manage to make a point. Instead both have attacked various other posters - debating the semantics of the story - as anti-semites and self-hating Jews. There's a strong force against any argument or debate on these pages. The cheap, mindless, often mentally unhinged attacks on other posters invariably avoid the points made. In this case, the points made by several posters were:- 1) Obama DID NOT make that analogy in his speech as Halpern claimed, as can be seen by looking at paragraphs 3 and 4. 2) Halpern is a very active GWB loyalist (her former boss), which may have encouraged her to spin (lie). 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm not sure what to make of some of these posts, given that several people claim that they had read JTA for years, but are now changing their minds. In the cases of people such as Joe Naylor and David Turner these are also their first posts. It makes me highly suspicious that they had read for several years, but only just set up or used their accounts - the same is true of a large number of 'new' posters. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Not really a surprise...the woman is an Israeli, who escaped the holocaust...From the headline I'd assumed it was some fascist anti-semite. Instead it's just an old Israeli-Jew who criticizes state actions. It's not surprising that the Central Council of Jews is keen to brief against her given that she criticizes the state, but it's hardly newsworthy. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I usually don't respond to Shaul, but the Ariel Sharon bashing from Shaul is typically immoral, despicable, and pathetic... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I wonder at the political thinking behind this. Brazil is a future emerging power, so long-term links will be important. However, there are also problems with institutional anti-semitism in many S. American countries - much more so than, say, Eastern Europe. It could also serve as a way of building links with Latino communities in the US, and pressuring the US both politically and economically by becoming more economically independent. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think a couple of you have playfully misinterpreted what constitutes 'hate-crime'. However, it rather debunks a lot of the claims made on these pages when after 10 years of pushing for the law, it goes through almost entirely from Dem votes. Anyway, hate crimes do need to be tracked more closely than other crimes...there are some wingnut individuals whose attacks may not be put together into a recognizable pattern without some central oversight. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Bibi is entirely right in what he DOES say. However it's NOT the same point as the US and the Europeans are pressing Israel on. The problem isn't that Jews are buying properties in East Jerusalem, and Muslim Pals in West Jerusalem. It's that it's there is a state-sponsored attempt at extending sovereignty into areas which even our strongest allies still consider to be contested territory. I don't think anybody could disagree with that - those who see it as uncontestable Israeli land would still have to acknowledge that the government has, since '67 sought to cement their control over areas through government-lead development and immigration programs. It's that shift of sovereignty which the US are pressing on...NOT Jews in East Jerusalem, so the suggestions that the US and Europe are pushing for ethnic cleansing are wide of the mark. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I don't care if it is 'art' - I don't care because it's a meaningless piece of either fascist iconograpy or mocking satire. Some of the bans which are in place in modern, developed countries of insignia or icons of unpleasant political groups make me uncomfortable...Wagner being a good example. Such bans may be important for a while following conflict, but they become ridiculous and unneccessary, and rather against freedom of expression. The result is that we end up reading about an investigation into gnomes. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Bob - you're absolutely right...I misread the story. Apologies. I was assuming it still had the bones of Lieberman's initial proposals, but on re-reading the article, it doesn't. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Regardless of what you think of people marking Nakba, this action is undoubtedly the kind of thought-crime which marks a totalitarian state, and I am ashamed that a modern democracy should have allowed such a proposal to get so far. The thing about democracy and freedom of speech is always that you don't always like what people have to say...that's something we have to be mature enough to accept. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wyman - it shouldn't be a surprise to you that there should be people fighting for the Palestinian side - there wouldn't be a conflict were there not two sides! Incidentally, on the 'Irish question', the IRA DID conduct many years of assassinations, bombings, terrorist raids, etc. both in N.Ireland against British targets and on the British mainland. At the time they were openly funded by the US, including by major US-Irish figures...it shouldn't surprise you that there are people who take the side of the other party, when it happened on a large scale from the US in a situation which was analogous in nature, although obviously not comparable in scale (an important distinction). Actually, you say "I never stated what Loach’s position is on the Irish situation" - I would have to disagree with that, in that I think you explicitly did, if you look back at your first post. Regardless, on the issue of cultural boycotts, I'm extremely uncomfortable with them, most notably when the victims are the participants - admittedly that isn't the case in this situation...Loach is withdrawing his film to draw attention to the issue, and we are giving him that attention. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - Yet again...my post said cleared up that I had't said what you'd claimed I'd said, and that my position was that we shouldn't be worried about people who have no political power, and nothing to give away. I'm not sure how your post relates to that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wyman - you should really find out a bit more about the Irish situation, as you've got both it, and Loach's position on it completely wrong. You're standing up for the Northern Irish Catholics and their terrorist paramilitaries - they fly Palestinian flags in most of the more hardline areas, while the loyalist Northern Irish Protestants fly Israeli flags, and show support for Israel, drawing an analogy between the two. I don't see how you condemn terrorists, and then support them in the same paragraph, and there is a danger of hypocrisy, as people often decide their opinions in a situation on the basis of who they WANT to be right. The British (NOT English - most of the N.Irish protestants are Scottish descendants) took over Ireland some 400+ years ago through the type of military land-grab that was typical of the time, and went on to control the N.Irish Catholics as 2nd class citizens...you really need to think through the implications of the situation for Israel, or find out something about the situation before throwing your support behind one side. Also, you suggested Loach would be on the side of the British govt, which suggests you haven't even Wiki'd him, as opposition to the British in N.Ireland is probably his biggest issue!...his last film was a pro-IRA piece, presenting their terrorism as freedom-fighting against oppression, which gained huge support around the world, and amongst the US-Irish in particular...he's certainly consistent in his causes, which I'm afraid your post is not. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Blackie - clearly not many here would ever support him, but to be factually accurate, a quick search shows Galloway is not a holocaust denier, or pro-Nazi. He's one of the far-left Marxists who oppose Israel, and has a background as a Communist. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 That's not really surprising...man who supports negotiations wants the mediator to focus on the other side for a while... It also doesn't mean that Olmert is suddenly a worthy politican, or anything of the sort. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again Phili, you go out of your way to attack me on threads I haven't even posted on. What a truly pathetic, bitter, twisted little fool you are...why don't you pool all of your limited mental ability, and try to make a point about something someday... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I would have to disagree Will - the idea that the two-state solution is the only workable outcome to the conflict is overwhelmingly supported by the majority of US Jews to my knowledge, and by the majority of the legislature. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - you wrote that:- "My feelings/opinion about mentionong Jimmy’s “contribution” was No Jew/Israeli,with self-respect wanted to have anything to do with him.". Not sure what the quote marks are for...I hadn't used the word, or implied it. What I HAD said, and what you seem to be twisting, is that they have nothing to give away, so we have no reason to be particularly concerned. On that point we'll have to agree to disagree, as I've made it every time you've misrepresented my position, and yet still we haven't got anywhere. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I would suspect that Phili were a pseudonym of Shaul were it not for the typos. I didn't say that I accepted (or supported) Carter's behavior, if you use your eyes and brain to read very carefully...I'm sure the misunderstanding was in error, rather than part of rather sad campaign to try to attack me on every thread - even ones I haven't posted on...it'll be nice when you do it by making an opposing point, rather than just making something up in that angry, bitter old man way you have about you. What I said was that we shouldn't be too concerned when people without political influence do things - we can't stop them, and they have nothing to give away. I pointed out that the positives of such non-diplomacy is that we have nothing to lose - from Carter's visit we found out about their opening position for negotiations, and Carter had nothing to give away. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - not sure what your point was, but it's common knowledge that the decrease in the amount of oxygen pumped around planes for carriers where smoking has been banned, has seen an increase in anxiety-related problems...and it has been investigated and monitored endless times, with carriers being pushed to reach certain levels. Thanks for posting though! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think we all know that leaders of states don't get directly, personally charged for attacks which happen under their watch, or at their command, be they Iranian, Syrian, Israeli, or American - the vast majority of leaders are invincible unless there is a coup while they are in power, which tends to happen only to the most extreme dictators... Leaders are beyond the law...the rest of us, aren't. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 But of course, none of these are 'proper' Jews, what with US education being so bad and all... And they all hate Israel too, as does most of America...and they're out to destroy Israel, because they love terrorism... ----------- Just some of the regular opinions from right-wingers when they're unable to formulate more complex, realistic opinions to argue against those they oppose - sometimes perfectly reasonably. Let's try and keep things at a higher level of debate - eh fellas? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 While the communications with Hamas are understandably still indirect, we shouldn't be particularly hysterical about individuals like Pickering, or groups like Neturei Karta meeting with them. Neither has political sway, and so can't give anything away...they perhaps draw attention to Hamas, which is certainly a risk, but it will be necessary at some point, and I'd ratehr it was no mark individuals and groups rather than more major political figures...besides, it was only through Carter's visit that we heard the development in their position to what appears to be their opening gambit in negotiations...accepting pre-'67 borders. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I think that, as you say at the end of your post, you may have understood me. I did portray them as "unstable angry people" in your words, but I'm not sure why you object to that...just before you'd called them "a sect of ultra-weird conservative Jews", so I guess we're all agreed that their behavior is unacceptable. As for them not representing all Orthodox groups, that's of course true. Finally, I have no disregard for the traditional Jewish way, but I also think that they should respect the Israeli state, and the democratic will of the people. They have to live within the law like anybody else, and can't attack police, politicians and institutions with immunity in the way that they do. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Sylvia - I have to say that I disagree with you, and as you say, feel that your view is 'radical'. I know that the remaining US Reps feel very threatened by him, and have tried to present him as a Communist/Terrorist/Pro-Palestinian, etc., but clearly those are all provably false, which is why the Rep party don't use them...were there a shred of truth in any of them, they would make political gains out of them, which is the principle on which the US was formed. Also, as a Rep I'm not sure you can say much about the Constitution...GWB famously walked over it repeatedly, whereas Obama has not transgressed once, and has made clear that he will stand by it. I don't believe there are any plans to form "Canamerico", or a New World Order...those are just conspiracy theories. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I would say to Yosef that repeating the IDF's full reaction would be fine, if you could highlight what you consider to be important points within it. 1) For example, their point that the testimonies are anonymous - presumably these troops are serving, and would also be open to prosecution. That means that they could be targetted extremely easily by the state, lose their livelihood, and put themselves, their colleagues and families at risk of persecution. Names would be great, but there are a lot of ways the state can make it nigh-on impossible for somebody to provide one without being suicidal. Equally, Breaking the Silence is a well respected organization, run by a lot of named former troops. No motice is suggested for why they would be making up testimonies. 2) The testimonies HAD been shown to IDF leaders according to the organization. An earlier statement said they'd only had 24 hours to prepare a response, which is more than reasonable, given that the IDF has repeatedly done nothing about well documented cases over a period of decades - the suggestion that "we knew nothing - tell us and we'll sort it out" is clearly garbage. 3) the line "Defaming and slandering the IDF and it's commanders" depends on the well ducumented claims (which fit very very closely with the conisderable body of previous investigations and testimonies) being untrue. If BtS has committed slander or defamation I'll expect to see them being sued in a court of law....otherwise it would suggest it's the IDF floudering about, throwing about allegations about BtS! I'm just amazed at how easily some people will accept the IDF PR and spin on the basis of principle and WANTING it to be true, rather than on the basis of rational decision making. It's a wholly anti-democratic artifact, that a response which contains so many clear distortions, misrepresentations, and all of the established tactics PRs use can become the story, while the issue can be distracted from the veracity of the report itself. 3) 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Don't see what the issue is here...the tourist office later accepted that the poster violated rules on accuracy for obvious reasons. I'm sure I read on Ha'aretz that something by Egypt, or Lebanon or somewhere had been withdrawn a few years ago for the same reason. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I've been on a flight with somebody with a terrible fear of flying...it made me petrified that they would do the same. Such events are reasonably common - particularly since smoking was banned by some carriers, allowing them to have oxygen levels only about 80% of the norm on most flights in order to save on costs. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The right decision has been made. When people campaign for, say, Israeli, Palestinian/Arab, Chinese, Russian, Iranian culture or artists to be excluded from events, it makes me wonder how well they've thought it through. Artists tend to be the most liberal, humanistic types willing to speak out against morality, so excluding them on the basis of their nationality would be pure racism. The issue of where funding comes from is another matter, but again I don't think there is a case for any kind of boycott in the arts. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm by no means a fan of Neturei Karta, but they're a pretty small orthodox group with very limited political clout. We knew that they opposed Zionist ideologies, and the state of Israel, and that Hamas would welcome the chance to say "It's the political control of Israel, and not Jews who are our enemy". They've given Hamas a platform they wouldn't have were Hamas instead being engaged more by Western countries or mediators on behalf of Israel, when they would have less control over the media agenda. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Incidentally, I also responded to your other post, where as a 'real American', you slam everything about the country, calling it the most corrupt nation on earth (!), saying it has failed all countries it has been involved with, and that this is the fault of the "bad genes" which have been "allowed" into the country... But of course, you only hate the blacks and latinos so much because they're ALL racist... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Tom Yerian - you call Obama racist, shortly before asking what "Africans have accomplished here since they were freed...I would be glad to send them to your neighborhood"... Not only is the hypocrisy laughable, but the answer to your question is in your post. In the few decades since oppression and segregation, a mixed race man has become President!!! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Incidentally, earlier I did a quick search for Phili Alawal. He follows 5 people on Twitter, one of whom is Karl Rove! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - as you would expect, I would politely disagree with you. Despite the point that the more conservative, orthodox groups who are against a two-state solution were not included here, there's no doubt that a two-state solution is accepted by a great many Jews, not just in the US, but here in Israel too....although I appreciate that we disagree on that, but just a quick point. More importantly, I've been becoming increasingly aware of the directly political posts from US Republicans on these pages, many of them from lobbyists, out to undermine Obama. For example, 'Liz Berney for Congress', who is at least honest about being connected to the Rep party. There was also somebody last week who posted about 7 times about how she had voted for Obama, and now felt extremely let down, calling him a 'coward'...a quick search showed her to be a major member of a rather fierce Republican lobbying group, who had lied about her vote, but strangely not her name. Also, Cheryl Halpern, last seen supporting GW Bush had an Op-Ed piece in JTA where she directly and blatantly mis-interpreted his words in a clearly deceitful piece of spin. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hi Tom! Scanning through your post, and another on another thread, there are quite a few points I would disagree with. I'll just take the top few:- 1) Israelis are not 'idiots' for believing in the US 2) Israelis are not "despised by the whole world", so we don't need to "get it in our heads" 3) Israel is not suggesting putting our security in the hands of anybody else. We are pretty militaristically advanced. thanks very much, and just have military allies, as all countries should. 4) I think it harsh to say the US has "failed politically every nation it has been involved with" 5) I don't agree that the US has "lost it's guts", given that it's more involved in wars than it has been for virtually all of it's miliaristic history. 6) I don't agree that the US is "the most politically corrupt nation on the planet"...in fact, they're pretty much the least corrupt, excluding perhaps the Northern Europeans. 7) The "gene pool...allowed to take up residence here" is not really connected to their recent performance...just to be clear, were you being racist about blacks, racist about Latinos, racist about Jews, racist about Asians??? Was it all of the above? Presumably not any of the other groups who formed and made up the world's only superpower. 8) That you are against Obama could kind of be guessed from your points about the US being the world's most corrupt nation, and the point about how bad the genes 'allowed into' the country are... 9) I don't think you have something you can describe as 'MY AMERICA' - you seem to hate and disparage everything about it... Anyway, I got halfway down, before realizing that by the time I'd written up the disagreements that far, I'd have no time to read the rest...I'm sure the rest of it is dandy. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmmm...the profile doesn't even suggest that it's Tamar/Pierre/Lawrence/Shaul, who I think is still posting under Shaul...interesting... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 These people are the kind of hardline crackpot fundamentalists who'll believe anything that happens is an attack on them as a group. They're truly unpleasant, unGodly Jews. Tim - the claim they're making is that when social services took this emaciated kid from a mother they said was probably suffering from Muchausens Syndrome by Proxy, that it was some kind of calculated, conspiracy-led attack on the Haredi, ultra-Orthodox groups. It would be a laughable level of delusion were it not for the fact that these anarchists' kids can be at risk, and they'll block roads, shout, scream, violently attack people, etc. before allowing any help to such kids. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This article is a 100% retelling of the IDF's perspective on the story, which isn't found on the more mainstream Israeli news sites. If you read the IDF's response to these testimonies from IDF troops, the only point is that the info should be sent to Barak and IDF leaders, and it's clearly a completely incorrect point. The testimony of these troops apparently HAS been sent to leaders of the IDF for their comments, and to various govt officials. The PR bods are just trying to muddy the waters. Equally, the troops' testimonies aren't that there were occasional "isolated instances", but specifically laid out the practices they were told to carry out, and which were widespread. Barak's response is thoroughly transparent deceitful PR. The actual testimonies can be found below. http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/index_e.asp 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - again, your post in no way relates, to mine - I don't know what you're talking about. I know you're a very angry and bitter, unGodly little man, given that you've made a point of insulting me on threads I haven't even been on, and where your insults are of no relevance to the story. However, I know you can do it. If you read slowly and carefully, and focus all of your rage and impotent angst, you can reply to a point, with another point of your own. Read back through my post. Now read your post. See how they aren't related? My post is about the OU's claims relating to the US' positions. Yours isn't. Try again. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 HAHA! Poor fascist diddums...did the bad academics say bad things about you? Did they use your own words in context against you? Aww... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - I know you're clearly a person with mental challenges, but now you're not even posting insults on threads I haven't posted on. I know you lack the ability to make an actual point, so why not try to get a friend, or maybe build a family at your stage in life...perhaps develop a hygiene routine, or do something slight less evil than the time you spend on here without ever making a point! Oh, and btw...I thought Blair was just cashing in on 'peace-maker' image, but will give him time. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I was puzzled until I realized the story depends on a Facebook group opposing it. What I know of advertising is that you need an advert, and a controversy. I will bet my life that the founders and initial members of that group are from McCann Ericson, getting the advert played on news websites, getting us watching and talking about it.... The lying manipulative b*stards 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Rachel - in the negotiations over a period of years, things like civil war in Iraq or Lebanon, or Egypt falling to the Brotherhood would all be wonderful things for Hamas, and appalling for Israel. It would support hard-line refusal to negotiate, terrorism, and another infitada. Anyway, I think none of those things will happen in that way. More realistically, certainly this is Fatah promoting how tough they can be in negotiations. Abbas is seen as a quisling, as Lieberman so unhelpfully pointed out, yet Erakat still said that "any government in which Hamas was a partner would have to recognize Israel and the commitments undertaken by the PLO" Clearly Hamas have put their 'recognizing Israel' chip at the level of the pre-'67 borders, so they certainly don't yet agree to that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 "Support Us! Not Them!" It should be pointed out that the Orthodox Union's comments apply not only to the US, but to Western Europe, and essentially the developed world as a whole - who undoubtedly majorly support Israel overall, but have started to add pressure on the issues they've long disagreed with. They're also based on a major logical flaw, which any Philosophy or English pupil could point out. There are people who claimed the Cairo speech suggested the suffering of Palestinians was like the Holocaust. It most certainly didn't. That is a claim of equivalence or events being comparable, whereas what the speech actually did was to talk at length against Holocaust denial, before acknowledging Palestinians had suffered in other situations - it did not suggest equivalence. The OU are trying this on a large scale in an act of political lobbying. Obama hasn't said that the settlements are AS BAD AS something else...he's just laid out requirements to both sides for progress. Therefore their objections to this are to claim that asking Israel to stop doing something at the same time as asking the Pals to stop doing something suggests the two things are of equal moral wrongness...it doesn't do that at all. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - as per usual, I've no idea what you're talking about...you throw snide abuse about, but again your response bears no relation to my post...whatsoever. Care to elucidate me on how your post is a response to mine? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Reckless driving is still not prosecuted strongly enough, so greater recognition of how putting in others in danger can be manslaughter can only be a good thing in my view. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Hmmm...my initial anger subsided a bit throughout the article. If there's such reasonable evidence that he wrote that he wanted to sell the articles anyway, and that he received a fair market price, then this is a rather complex case. There are certainly many thousands of more clear cut, and scandalous examples which are much more worthy of our attention. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 All in all, the changes in WB policy as a whole have been under-emphasized, and under-publicized. He's actually right on this one. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I've just read Gary Katz' last comment...if some of you are Israeli rather than American, or have some relatives who went through the holocaust, you'll be disgusted at the comparison, and the claim that the UK somehow acted poorly during WWII. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As ever, any criticism is met with a wave of childish, xenophobic hatred, rather than actually disputing the point. Despite claims of them being a 'second rate power', they're 60m people, who are the world's 4th largest economy! Ok - you disagree with their actions on this. Undoubtedly every one of you also stand up for Israel's rights to take their allegiances wherever they like, so nobody disputes their right to take a token 5 out of 182 licences away. Again, that's 5 out of 182. Be angry, but get it into some proportion. It's scarcely a diplomatic slap on the wrist for Cast Lead, from their side, justified as their export rules prevent providing parts which may be fired in aggressive actions rather than defensive, or indiscriminately, etc. etc. As ever, as with the US and the rest of the developed world, many posters talk as if they're not an ally, and will never be one...ridiculous, and disgusting, given their actions in WWII, as well as their current positions on Israel. I don't know if you've noticed, but there weren't any allies cheering us on wholeheartedly about Cast Lead, and the likes of the UK chose to keep their criticism low key. Regardless, it's even farcical to talk of countries according to their actions 60+ years ago...they've cancelled 5 out of 182 licences - get it in proportion, and argue the point. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I think people born in Jerusalem should have a choice of whether they wish to categorize that as Jerusalem, Israel, or Al Quds, in whatever they wish to call the state. That's what's done in other conflict zones, such as Northern Ireland, where the people are eligible for a British or Irish passport, and can essentially choose. What Bush did was a knowingly distracting piece of theatre, but he didn't actually enact any law to back it up. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 One side of the debate will see this as US Jews expressing opinions which offer much less support for the settlements than the harder line, right-wingers want to see. Others will see it as US Jews being either subservient, or anti-Israel radicals. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Arkady - firstly you again suggest I've made some kind of point about grammar...and again I haven't. It must be about 5 or 6 times you've used that as your opening gambit, yet I've not once 'lectured' you on grammar, spelling, or anything else like that. I think you're getting me confused with somebody else. Secondly, in the post you were replying to, I was contrasting implied support, and personal connections to somebody who engaged in bombing plots against US Govt property and Institutions (and a democratically elected politician), with what you would have said about anybody else who reminisced in the same way about such attacks from another group. US Reps tried to make plenty of capital out of virtually no link between Obama and Ayers, and yet two posters here were implying closer personal links with a leader behind arguably much worse plots. Funny, isn't it, how peoples' principles on terrorism, attacking US Govt Institutions, and democratically elected politicians are one thing if the bomb-makers are on your side...THAT's what I was pointing out. Finally, you suggest Rubin had no involvement with any killings...well he died in prison on conspiracy charges, so we'll never know for absolute certain, but the many charges against him throughout his life were very strong, but you're more than welcome to believe otherwise. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stuart - I have to disagree with you on your main point there. There's no doubt that countries' positions on all weapons depends on the position of their enemies in the region, all throughout history. In the case of nuclear weapons, Iran is building towards a nuclear weapon for various reasons, with part of their justification being that Israel has them, so why can't Iran. In the case of both Iran and N.Korea, rogue dictators and leaderships have of course been under direct threat from neighboring powers, and have developed nuclear weapons so that they can pose a threat to others, making them essentially untouchable, and a bigger player on a world stage. It's a massive, dangerous bargaining chip. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Unbelievable. Looks alike these Greek Union Organizers managed to even fool plenty of politicians... Disgraceful - and this isn't an isolated incident. We've seen from the countless exposes of African aid over the years what scammers do. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 They clearly implied they had been involved in terrorism against the US - I invite anybody to look back at their posts... Would the word HYPOCRITE be appropriate??? I say that as somebody who is half a US citizen, and as a Jew, I think we're all more than keen to attack anybody who attacks democratically elected politicitians...two posters have claimed to have worked for a murderer who attacked such a person....defend that!!! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - not sure what you're referring to...people can look back and decide for themselves. Both Arkady and Leland claim to have had a close involvement with somebody who is an admitted terrorist who targetted US government property, and a US elected politician who dared to hold opinions they disagreed with. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I appreciate the civility of your reply...as I said in my post, I know that you consider the settlements legitimate, and I don't, so we've essentially agreed to disagree on that. However, the point I was making was on the motivation of Europe in supporting the US in the drive to freeze settlement expansion. As I've said, I think some people on these boards are keen to berate any country, no matter how much of an ally they are...often it barely even takes an area of disagreement before somebody starts shouting about how some other country hates Israel and is out to destroy it. Also, as we've been through before, you believe Israel is strengthened by the expansion of settlements, and I think it's weakened. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - I would recommend people read my post and then yours. I very politely suggested that European countries are not simply out to destroy Israel, as had been suggested...I don't know what you were talking about after that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - predictably your response is purely based on childish pathetic abuse. My point was about people's continual attacks on other Jews, which your consistently bitter and twisted, bileous posts rely on. You're a massive hypocrite. You attack others in the most vicious and unGodly ways imaginable...you'll give yourself an ulcer or a heart attack if you're not careful. Arkady...I didn't really follow your point, but you say something about me making points based on grammar - look back at my posts!!! None of them are based on grammatical points, but my arguing that people may disagree with these Rabbis trying to raise issues around civilian suffering in Gaza, but to show some basic respect in disagreeing with them, in keeping with Judeac teachings. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wow - Just imagine if somebody came on here standing up for a terrorist who killed individuals, and conspired to attack elected US politicians and US property, as well as indulging in purely racial or religiously motivated attacks.... Looks like LELAND and ARKADY are keen to admit to their personal links in the past to one such person!!! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, posters seem to be accusing these Rabbis of being pro-terrorist, or of supporting the missiles, etc. As we often see on these pages, a huge chunk of Rabbis (and indeed Jews of other ethnicities) quickly get pretty viciously attacked on these pages, with no maturity or respect, and no regard for their actual words and actions. I can guarantee these Rabbis have strong views on the missiles, Shalit, and Hamas - the people suggesting otherwise are indulging in pretty clearly false smears on Rabbis, and very lazy, childish debating. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I disagree. I think the European countries have all been saying that the settlements are a problem, and I know that you support them, but a lot of other people don't. At the very least we can agree that the European countries are not simply out to destroy Israel, but are making a sincere push for progress and negotiation, albeit in a way you disagree with. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The JDL is like any other organization, in that there are people in there who don't necessarily follow the will or the tactics of the rest of the group, as we know. What makes such a group successful is that such actions are rightly and publically condemned, rather than being excused. Any prevarication on this would be very bad PR, and morally unacceptable. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 The main issue in the article is whether a unilateral attack would be possible or desirable, politically or militarily. The comments by most European leaders recently have been quite united against a unilateral attack, and I think it's a rather more complex issue than a response of mere 'French-bashing' can deal with. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stuart - I agree, as I believe do all other posters. However, I think we've all just got round to ignoring the posts...Apparently involvement with the site is quite important to this particular individual, as can be ascertained by the...er...nature of her posts. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Over the past two years or so the internation community has woken up to the threat - it also looks as if Russia has come onside a bit too. The threat of military action is best coming from a wide range of countries, and if you'll excuse the pun, that's the nuclear option - should nothing come out of negotiations. The potential for any nuclear power to be developed across the border in Russia and then transferred to Iran is one option, but nuclear weapons are a very big bargaining chip. On the upside, there is at least a relatively united front, and the threat is much higher up the agenda than it has been before, now that they are within a few years of something being operational. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Oh, and Arkady - I never quite know what you mean, but given that I laid out points in quite a mature, conciliatory manner, it seems typically aggressive for you to resort to childish abuse, which I assume that you were doing in that mishmash of letters. Somebody the other day (Will I think) suggested your misspellings and grammar were too inconsistent, and given that you spend a lot of time posting on a Jewish/Israeli website, I would assume you would have learnt how to spell 'Israeli'. Anyway, the kneejerk response of saying 'None of these Rabbis is a proper Jew and they all hate Israel' is rather obsolete. As I stated in my post, have the maturity to accept that in a democracy others - particularly men of God - may have opinions you disagree with without them being worthy of quite brutal attacks. Incidentally Arkady, I'm quite certain every one of them has campaigned and spoken out about the Rockets and Hamas many times - again, it's a demonstrably false suggestion that they are Rabbis who are simply out to smear Israel, or somehow support terrorists...pretty pathetic allegations to throw at Rabbis...could it be that you disagree with them on this point??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Myron J - Your suggestion that they don't care about Shalit is, as ever, a pretty blatantly untrue response. These Rabbis have of course spoken and campaigned about Shalit too. Secondly, your claim that Hamas were fairly voted in goes wholly against the official Israeli and internation position that they're a terrorist group who fought, threatened and cheated their way into power. Even had you of been correct (which you demonstrably aren't on that point) then it still wouldn't justify collective punishment any more than that group of Pals who killed an Israeli taxi driver, or Al Qaeda killing Americans and saying 'well they voted for Bush'. Thirdly, I assume you're referring to a particular piece of soldier's testimony, but again, the fact is that in some well documented and verified cases, civilians who were not considered a threat were shot at close range is accepted - these things happen in war, and there is considerable testimony from soldiers and evidence of weapons which backs this up. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As some of you would expect, I'm broadly in support of this action - many of you will not be. However a few points I feel are important are that:- 1) The distinction between Hamas and the people of Gaza is crucial. Many posts on Gaza use the word 'they' in a wholly indiscriminate manner. 2) Even supporters of Cast Lead have now to acknowledge that even if you think the military campaign was necessary and productive, there were still a great many things none of us can be proud of - the shooting of civilians at close range, for example, as has been well documented from soldiers' testimony. 3) This protest may mean that the Rabbis disagree with you, but it clearly does not mean that they are 'Israel-hating anti-semites', as Reformists are often called. It just means they have a different perception of a controversial military intervention, and are, from their perspective, putting religious teaching into practice in the same way that supporters of Cast Lead feel they are putting THEIR perception of religious teachings into practice. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 More seriously, although I'm against a unilateral attack without considerable international support, any such attack would have to be limited to taking out nuclear-related targets, or if need be, limiting the time ground troops are in the country. Anything else is just too big a military target. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Arkady - I'm not sure I follow, but on the issue of the vetoed arms deal, my point was that I disagree with Paul's suggestion that it was Israeli technology, which was superior to the US technology, and that the US had just vetoed it for some other, illegitimate reason. I was arguing that presumably it WAS US technology, and that there must have been some technicalities in the deal under which the US sold it to us, which specified something about selling it on. Alternatively, there was no such term attached, but the Israeli leadership agreed to cancel the deal, perhaps in exchange for some other political capital. Regardless, I was arguing that the US haven't just pushed Israel about on an arms deal just because they can. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 As you'd expect, I agree fully with this. The settlements are highly dubious in many ways, and most importantly, hugely damaging to Israeli security, and international standing. If the Pals were making regular incursions into Israeli land, then it would clearly be massively unacceptable. Before somebody says 'it's all Israeli land' - well that's fine, for everybody who believes it, but the Pals, the Europeans and Americans disagree. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Just to clarify - Cheryl - I was suggesting that I suspect your motivation for such distortion and extrapolations of what was actually said to be political. As an extremely active Republican, most recently from the GW Bush administration, I find it hard to believe that it's coincidental that you've taken the fact that Obama mentioned separate situations of suffering, and used that to suggest that he claimed that the situations were equivalent. It looks like pretty cheap spin. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Cheryl - There are quite a few flaws in your argument, and I can't help but suspect you've been disingenuous in purposefully misreporting and misinterpreting the Cairo speech. Firstly, the extract you quote clearly wasn't, as you claim: "the president’s way of agreeing with those who say that Zionism created a new class of victims who have suffered as much as the Jews of Europe". He firstly summarized the suffering of Jews in the Holocaust, to attack deniers...you're then expecting him not to acknowledge the suffering of Pals? He certainly didn't claim that there was equivalence, or necessarily that the two situations were directly analogous - just that both sides had suffered in different situations, and so the basic hook on which you've hung this whole article attacking Obama, is clearly incorrect. Anybody can read the 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraphs, and will see that the conclusion you've drawn doesn't relate to what Obama said. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I have to disagree on that point. I think that most of the European countries have been clearly against the settlements for 40 years, but have only sporadically expressed this due to diplomatic reasons. It's only recently that concerted pressure is being brought to bear. I think the support of European people and governments for the rights and the existence of the state of Israel is often underestimated - but because we disagree on a number of key points they're sometimes portrayed as being some massive anti-semitic bloc. Incidentally, a quick check shows the UK, for example, is about 2.7% muslim, which is certainly not something which will dictate policy. The issue of oil is a potential influence, but I think is relatively minor. I see it as allies who support Israel on a great many points, taking issue with something they've refrained from pressurizing Israel publically on for decades. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 'Blackie' - again your post seems to miss the point of the story. Saying "It’s not we Jews who need to curry favor with the blacks" is pretty much contrary to the beliefs of Tobin. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Paul - I have to disagree wholeheartedly with a few of your points. 1) The US has never presented itself as an 'honest broker' by any stretch, and even now that it is moving away from it's very largely pro-Israel position, couldn't be considered to be pro-Arab as you suggest. 2) If the vetoed military deals were nothing to do with US technology, or if there were no legitimate legal or political reasons why the US could step in, it would be up to Israeli leaders to either refuse to stop the deal, or wring out a concession. 3) From a lot of posters, anti-US sentiment disturbs me...along with the anti-European sentiment, it undermines the two main blocks of allies Israel is politically dependent on, both in the international community, and for trade. The US is a crucial friendship for Israel, and I don't think it can be claimed that they've been anything other than hugely generous in their political and financial/trade/technological support. If anything, they've spoilt us, so that any decrease in this support is being treated as a major slight. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This case looks pretty damning. At the same time, the likes of Mubarak have never been averse to stitching people up to gain further financial and military support from the US, while turning a blind eye to other issues. I wouldn't believe everything Mubarak says, but hopefully evidence will be available for outside goverments to decide for themselves whether this is one of his publicity stunts. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Too right. Of course they get accused of being Quislings - that's unavoidable. However, the capability of WB security services has improved dramatically by all accounts, and long may it continue. The (very ) gradual increase in the areas they are responsible for can only be a good thing, so long as their work is assessed by Israeli security forces. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Links between Judaism and Christianity are crucial. There's an important allegiance there which needs to continue to be encouraged. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ah - Shaul. If you keep claiming that the lawyer has taken a dive or is a paid spy you'll give away your identity - or at least your previous ones. This is essentially a good thing. The evidence is overwhelming. He's been found guilty. He's going to jail... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Oh happy day! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I accept your distinction between the rage and the urge for revenge from basically ordinary people, and terrorist groups, but while they are on different scales, clearly neither is in any way acceptable - and I'm sure we'd agree on that. My point was that this despicable attack on an innocent man is sometimes reflected in the desire for revenge amongst JTA posters, where the enemy becomes a people or a religion, rather than those who commit or plan to commit acts...the same has happened in this massively unpleasant case. That said, as I assume you're thinking, the Pals as a whole seem to pose a threat - a view which is both understandable, and which has reason behind it. However, I think that any attack on an innocent person in an act of revenge against a nation should always be deplored. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's despicable when Pal supporters do it to Israeli/Jewish property, and it's despicable when Israel supporters do it to Pal/Muslim property. The moral high ground is the most productive position for Israel and Jews generally, and fortunately, events like this are quite rare. However, we should still condemn them when they occur - excusing them with the "Well it happens to us" excuse just leads to the loss of that all-important highground. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Howard - I agree that foreign countries cannot INSIST on a change, but as you say, it's their problem, and they can just take their diplomacy and develop relationships elsewhere instead. The issue is whether Israel's interests are served by an FM who, unlike Bibi (or Sharon or Olmert, for that matter), appears to lack the necessary skills to manouvre to achieve the best outcome for the country. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's wholly disgusting to take revenge on an unconnected, ostensibly innocent person for a grievance you have against their race or religion... Which is why, unlike many of the posters on JTA, I oppose such actions. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Howard - I'm not sure a minority like this could be said to have 'collaborated' with Saddam...it's also a dangerous standard to use to judge people, given that we, the US, and most of the developed world also 'collaborated' with Saddam in a much larger way. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Given the stick I've got for refusing to reveal my full surname, I'm surprised that somebody has got away with calling themselves 'JPeditor', when they clearly aren't At least that lady yesterday from the right-wing lobbyists jK Heritage Foundation posting comments primarily about Obama had the decency to disclose her position honestly (well, on her profile at least). 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 JMRB - Rose Marie - I didn't recognize the name, and notice that you only formed your account today - Welcome to the site! I notice that you consider Obama a pacifist - in fact it's been in 5 of your 7 posts so far. I would have to disagree given that he's ramped up Afghanistan and the NW Pakistan conflict. I would argue it's about sending troops into conflict where it's beneficial to the country, and where there is a strategy to do so, rather than being pacifistic, or using militaristic posturing to gain votes. Look at Bush - an admirable thing he did after 7 years of hardline posturing was to finally have the bravery to acknowledge the lack of progress, and sit down to talk to various enemies over his final year. BTW - I see you've put that you're from the jK Heritage Foundation. Wasn't it very awkward for somebody from a quite highly partisan right-wing lobbying group to vote Democrat, as you were saying you did, before you became disillusioned with him? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I'm not sure if Will was trying to be provocative, but Kerry Winn's similar racism suggests the article hasn't been read... They'll be monitored, checked for links, etc. They're Iraqi Palestinians who've become persecuted as a result of the Iraq invasion, for which the US took the vast bulk of the responsibility. If you change your mind, and believe in any of the basic founding principles of the US, Israel, or any meritocratic democracy, then you'll appreciate that i) US Immigration Officials may miss people, but when the people are there to be questioned, they're not stupid, and will investigate these guys fully. ii) Prejudice against people purely on grounds of nationality or religion is sooo 1930's - especially when they'll be investigated and monitored. iii) When you start a war, and people get displaced, you have to take at least a token amount of responsibility, rather than passing it all onto allies. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - I wholly agree about the problems with anti-semitism in Argentina, and the seriousness of the allegations, but to be honest, don't believe he's being appointed BECAUSE of the allegations of concealing evidence about the attack. I suspect it just reflects a complete lack of regard or consideration for the seriousness of such allegations in a region where police corruption is much more common that in Israel or the US. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 That must be about the 10th different issue that comment has been posted on...it's not really relevant though. In this case it appears that this guy is being promoted despite some very serious allegations hanging over him. It seems like a considerable risk on the part of those who promoted him. There are countless examples of cops with serious allegations of withholding, or fabricating evidence being promoted, and it seems that the politics of law enforcement does give them some kind of invincibility. I think the right thing would have been to only allow him as a temporary holder of the position. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This seems like strange mixed messages in this negotiation...the Western countries are pushing for a complete construction freeze, but have made this concession. I'm not sure quite what the intention is...is it a trade-off, that some building has been allowed before some kind of freeze? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - because I hadn't been on the link, but thanks for thinking of me ;-) Countries often have to ask recognition from others of their right to attack a country under international protocols...It's just that the likes of the US and the UK don't actually have to get it before they go ahead and do their thing anyway. Therefore I don't agree that US acceptance is ESSENTIAL in determining Israel's actions. However it is HIGHLY DESIRABLE that we don't act directly against US wishes unless it is completely necessary, given how important our relationship is on many levels. For example, if Israel broadly wanted a major attack, and the US wanted none, then as has happened throughout history, and agreement could be reached whereby the US would agree to support, say, an attack on nuclear facilities directly - e.g. there will be areas of agreement, which will help to maintain the relationship, and will greatly limit the potential damage to Israel from any attack. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Ari - That's not what I was arguing - I specified that his high position of power was due to the balance of power in the PR system rather than pure democratic popularity - that's indisputable, and doesn't relate to, for example, Supreme Court Judges, as you suggest, who aren't voted in by the public. I made clear I wasn't disputing him having A place in government, as a result of democratic will, but said that FM wasn't suitable for him, contrasting his ability to reign himself in when it suits Israel's interests, with that of, for example, Bibi, whose experience makes him a calmer arbiter on behalf of the people. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 There's not an ally who hasn't implied dissatisfaction with Lieberman. His position of power is a consequence of the PR system rather than direct democratic popularity. He's clearly singularly unsuitable for FM, and may be useful in a different position in govt. People considered to be hardliners like Bibi are fair enough, but I'm not sure Lieberman would know when to tone it down to preserve Israel's interests... 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 No more Lawrence??? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Again, posters are now claiming that JTA is radically anti-semitic and anti-Israel...is this the level of debate you're capable of??? If you think that JTA is part of some kind of conspiracy, then I advise you not to read Haaretz, or any international media... The settlements are highly controversial for reasons I can at least say that we all understand...the issue is that not all of us AGREE that they should be controversial. It's the vicious attacks on the intentions of the JTA staff which I find most disturbing...if you don't like it, go and read something else. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is why the situation is unsustainable. Moves have to be made towards allowing basic industry or economic activity amongst Pals, or the EU - AND Israel - will have to keep providing aid and money to prevent the humanitarian crises which are even worse for Israel. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 These 'lesson learning' displays are often a sop to those investigating or opposing some of the actions that occur in war. The actual intention to protect troops and civilians in future wars and dealing with military issues in a more modern way hasn't fully been demonstrated by our reckless political leadership. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is quite disturbing. When something so horrific has to be done, it really has to be handled as sensitively as possible, and clearly that didn't happen in this case. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 He's undoubtedly a despicable little man, with extremely dubious allies (the other power in F1 is the son of the fascist Max Moseley, who stood as a candidate for his father's party). It's quite right that there are complaints about this - that said, there have been other people who have tried to talk about what dictators actually did well (e.g. the people who have talked about how the Nazis manipulated iconography and propaganda to further their goals). It isn't of itself anti-semitic, but it is highly disrespectful to the victims. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 I have mixed feelings about how productive this would be. Currently the dictators are massively unpopular amongst a population who have looked more to the West, and voted overwhelmingly against Ahmadinejad's pathetic nationalism. Sanctions would punish the people more than the leadership, and everywhere there have been sanctions it just tends to be seen by the population as a foreign attack on them, boosting nationalist sentiment. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - I was one of the relatively few people on the boards standing up for Bibi against all of those who claimed he was selling Israel down the river. My position was that his call for a demilitarized Palestinian state, effectively under Israeli control is clearly not a final position, and is not in any way a deal that could ever work - it's like Hamas' position of only accepting pre'67 borders - it's an opening gambit, which is clearly part of negotiations. It is, however, a sensible move. Nonetheless a Palestinian state would have to have the goal of sovereignty and self-determination over time, so long as it could gain the trust of the international community. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - for the reasons I detailed above, I think holding Obama responsible for a) A N. Korea situation that's been going on for well over a decade, and b) the fact that the Ayatollah has not yet been overthrown in Iran (?!?) is ridiculous and politically motivated. I can only assume then that you think the US should immediately invade Iran and effect regime change? And also in Honduras and N. Korea??? Anyway, again you've suggested a few things that puzzle me, such as that Obama would apologize to Ahmadinejad; Kim Il, or Chavez...not sure why. I think we should just agree to disagree on whether Obama is responsible for the long-term situations you mention, but I'd be interested to know what alternatives you suggest as a plan of action to actually deal with them. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - 1) Israel clearly faces the biggest threat of elimination around, but I have to say that contrary to your last post, you did specifically say that Obama was responsible for various things, and had not done anything to support the Iranian uprising, or anything about N. Korea - incidentally I'm a US-Israeli. 2) Again, I think it's not surprising that there's been no change in policy with N Korea, as they're using weapons as a bartering chip. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's pretty much what he said before - two-states, but with demilitarization - but it nonetheless builds on the progress he made with his initial declaration of support for the idea. It's a reasonable starting point for negotiations, and quite a sensible move. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 It's pretty much what he said before - two-states, but with demilitarization - but it nonetheless builds on the progress he made with his initial declaration of support for the idea. It's a reasonable starting point for negotiations, and quite a sensible move. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MICHAEL DISEND:- I've got halfway through your post, and it's the same pathetic crap - personal abuse, and claims that unless you get a story from a soldier, then you don't accept that some of them are disillusioned by digressions from acceptable activity. To be honest, I forwarded the link to ONE guy I thought may reply. If he hasn't - http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp. You've put forward no argument whatsover. I get rather tired of 'blowhards' like you all the way from San Francsisco, who attacks the views of Israelis on the conflict, and then calls others 'brave'...I'd have thought that an elderly actively gay hypnotist from San Francisco you're definitely not likely to be somebody who either resorts to endless loud personal abuse, or feels in a position to lecture other people, and be rather less keen to resort to the pathetic childish abuse that you rely on. I posted countless points ABOUT THE ACTUAL ISSUE in my above posts, and you've managed to respond to none of them, as you can't....nice work Poindexter....try hynotising people to believe you actually mentionned anything about the issue in your several posts of mentally unhinged, sociopathic abuse! You're an unGodly mess. You're unwilling to indulge in basic debate, so scr*w you. Why don't you actually come to Israel, or lose a relative in the conflict, and then form an opinion on it? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 LELAND:- Since I heard a little about Lawrence/Pierre, I stopped replying to him/her, and am taking the same approach with you. As with a couple of other posters, you're definitely massively unhinged. People can read the posts, and see how your rambling continues. READ CAREFULLY:- THE POST YOU REFER TO BY LEOPOLD FRIEDMAN WASN'T A RESPONSE TO ME BUT TO A MICHAEL HESS!!! Really. This pathetic childish campaign of abuse you are conducting is becoming a waste of my time. This is supposed to be a forum for debate on news topics. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 PHILI:- You and everybody else can look back at my posts on this, and your replies, and I can't follow your points - they're quite garbled. As you've said you are quite elderly, and I'm not sure quite what you're arguing about, I have no interest in pursuing an argument with you about it. However, your rant includes random abuse about how I apparently said that I myself had a "MENTAL BLOCK to understand facts [sic]" (!?!). What's that about? Where did I say that? You've also just beneath that that so long as I agree with you, then you'll discuss it with me...well that's super, but other than being broadly right-wing on the issue, you've not said what your position is, and it's also not a discussion, so I'm not interested. Finally to answer your questions - yes I know a reasonable amount about Israeli and Jewish history; yes I've lost 1 close relative in recent years, and 1 grandfather in conflict, and no I've not served in the military. I lived in the US until during my 20's. What has that got to do with the question we were discussing about how any negotiations should progress? 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL - I see your hypocrisy is coming along well. Look back at your posts on any thread, and then come back and tell me I'M being aggressive. And yes, when I said that she used to be presented as a friend of Israel (backed up by how well she has traditionally done in polling amongst the Jewish community), your response claimed that not only does she not believe in God, but "she has never exhibited a belief in Torah" - so therefore you did interpret it the way I claimed. I'll try to type slower for you. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - I think you're demonstrably wrong or misguided on your two main points, for these reasons:- 1) Iran - I pointed out that the position is the same as under Bush. Public acknowledgement that Israel has a right to attack, and private dissuasion from doing so. On the topic of the unrest, under Bush (who I assume you supported) Ahmadinejad got in, got stronger, and the Iran situation only got worse. Under Obama the public voted overwhelmingly against Ahmadinejad, and Obama would have done well to say nothing, so that the Ayatollah can't make it an issue to boost nationlistic pride, and weaken the protestors. You're not suggesting what Obama SHOULD do...short of invading Iran (disasterous) what do you suggest? He (rightly) stayed quiet, and was battered by the politically motivated right-wingers. He then spoke out in support of the people, and was battered by the politically motivated right-wingers. 2) What has he done on N.Korea in his several months??? Are you serious??? In the previous years under Bush, the position was THE SAME! Frankly I think you're scrabbling around to find a stick with which to beat Obama for political reasons, and the best ones the GOPers can find, are that in several months, he hasn't overthrown the long-standing dictatorships of the Ayatollah and Kim Jong-Il! 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili Alawal - seems like quite an overreaction - JQP clearly wasn't claiming to be a psychologist. A quick check suggests that if your implications are correct, and Attias said nothing like what he's quoted as saying, then it's a conspiracy that all of the media are in on, and Attias himself has been oddly complicit with - most of the claims about his comments are well documented. You express the usual concerns about retaining Israel as a Jewish state, but that's what the poster also expressed! He said that separation could allow Pals to use a competitive advantage to increase their population. As for your implicit support for separating different 'levels' of Jew - well it's a truly abhorrent and ridiculous suggestion, which goes against all religious teachings. It's impossible on a practical level. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - again, I'm not sure I follow your points. I notice though you say at the end about a desire for progression on the peace front, so I guess we agree on that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - I'm not sure I follow your point. The situation on N. Korea had been several years of stalemate and missile tests under Bush. Now under Obama its...stalemate and missile tests. The situation on Israel and Iran had under Bush been undefined, with an implicit reluctance of Bush et al to allow an invasion of Iran, but with a public acknowledgement of Israel's sovereignty. That is still clearly the same... I'm not sure what you're asking about. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Leland:- Fair enough - I accept your point on the distinction between culture and solid religious requirements, but support the availability of the yarmulke in prison - rosaries and wave caps are available, etc. I don't see it as a security risk, as it's rather like clothing, and I objected religious objects being withdrawn as punishment. As for your truce, I'm not convinced it would do anything other than make any sniping become more oblique. Therefore I've suggested on another thread that we don't have a firm commitment to not replying to others', but I'll continue to intially address the actual issue, and I hope that you will do likewise. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 LELAND:- 1) Chicken??? For not trusting you to undertake a truce honestly??? That doesn't make any sense, Poindexter. 2) Who is Leopoldo Friedman, and on what thread is his post? 3) You've just repeated to me what I said about you!!! I think anybody can read this thread alone as an example of you never addressing any actual point. 4) On your offer of a 'truce', I suggest something more reasonable. I'm not saying I won't reply to your posts, but I'll continue to intially address the actual issue, and I hope that you will do likewise - feel free to respond to my post, but respond to actual points rather than playing games or indulging in abuse. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 LELAND:- Your position on this has been truly pathetic. You've still not tried to defend your post which I said contained irrelevant and incorrect xenophobic slurs. I've detailed at length why you are incorrect, and what have you come back with??? Abuse, as ever. I assume then that you acknowledge that your claims were inaccurate, as well as being irrelevant. And no, I'm not going to have your little truce game, as your perpetual sniping would still continue, just indirectly. You're a pretty cheap game player, which is why you've not participated in any discussion about the topic you yourself repeatedly raised...you've done the same countless times on other threads too. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Leland - you've blurred items like the yarmulke with Ganja for Rastafarians...none of the other items you mention are directly required in the way the yarmulke is for many Jews. I know you are being facetious, but nobody is asking for the guy to have a knife to attempt kosher killings - just a strip of cloth. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is quite intolerable. I don't mind protests which are about major issues, or where the voice of the people or their representatives has not been heard, but this has dragged on too long. I strongly believe in freedom of religious [removed]as I'm sure we all do), and that means that non-Jews, or those who don't observe the Sabbath can decide for themselves whether to use a carpark on that day. The democratic processes of a free market will determine whether it is economically viable to do so. Calling the police 'Nazis' and 'murderers' is both shocking and illogical - it's not the police who are trying to control others. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 This is completely unacceptable. I know what people will say - he sounds like no kind of Jew, and a fantasist crook. However, religious paraphenalia is a right, where it is justified by the faith - it IS NOT for wardens to judge how sincere somebody is in their religious beliefs, and to withdraw a yarmulke as a punishment is a disgrace. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 MICHAEL DISEND:- AGAIN, your bile filled rant addresses no issues whatsoever, nor does it back up your previous allegations. I have little interest in your truly pathetic, aggressive, point/issue avoiding invective, and suggest that everybody who reads this goes back to the previous page to see how it began. Given that you attacked my post on the topic of the thread, and made various allegations, I'd like you to actually explain or substantiate them, as so far you've done nothing but scream demented, unhinged abuse. 1) I asked you before, and I'll ask you again, as I've gone through my post, and you've made a typically unsupportable, vicious allegation. "Which of my points do you consider to be “sheer Israel-hating fabrications and toxemic propaganda” - as you don’t specify, you’ve given nothing to argue against, which is typically cowardly. If you disagree with the report, EXPLAIN WHY! " 2) I told you that I'm not giving you people's names, and lets be clear about this - are you continuing to claim that deviations from acceptable norms of behavior DON'T disturb or traumatise young IDF members??? On what basis do you make that claim? From San Francisco, have you known anybody who's been in the IDF, or talked to them about their experiences? Here is what I posted:- "However, that you’re disputing that transgressions from acceptable protocol can disillusion other members of the IDF is pathetic and farcical, given that it’s an accepted fact of life in ALL militaries. I don’t see why anybody would claim otherwise, so what you’re suggesting is blatantly and demonstrably ridiculous, motivated by your seething hatred rather than logic." 3) I also told you that I am not giving you my surname to protect myself from aggressive sociopaths like you!!! For example, a quick search suggests you are the actor and professional hypnotist Michael Disend, giving me access to a great deal of details about you - I assume that is the case, and you aren't one of the many people who use pseudonyms? The name I've given IS my correct first name and initial, but giving my surname on an internet forum would be a ridiculous security risk, and I think you'll find that if your objection to that is anything other than a childish, opportunistic stick with which to beat somebody you disagree with, then you'll hate loads of the posters on this site, and indeed about 99%of the internet. Now I suggest that you yet again fail to dispute my original post, or back up your allegations, and then simply resort to assorted abuse. Alternatively, if you're ready to enter into an actual disagreement, READ MY POST, AND MAKE ANY OBJECTIONS YOU HAVE IN AN HONEST MANNER. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Leland - 1) Your post on the original story said 'what do you expect from a country where they drain the blood from the deceased, and then use the same needle on children...the lucky ones end up dead of AIDS or HIV...and several other attacks on what a terrible country Romania is. I had to point out to several people that posting that Romania as a country was anti-semitic was irrelevant, as the initial, rather weak claims suggested Jews MAY have been amongst bones sold for ECONOMIC reasons. The story is apparently untrue. 2) Those claims on how appalling Romania is, and how badly they treat people, I pointed out were ECONOMIC. Not only are your claims very far out of date, but you imply that when needles had to be reused it was due to fecklessness or indifference, when in fact it was a lack of medical supplies. 3) Your claims are incorrect now anyway, a bit of research shows most of the concern about reused needles was IN THE LATE '80's / EARLY '90's! I remember people doing charitable collecting during the crisis, and can only assume this is when your evidence is from. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1109205.html You'll find that since that 1990 paper, the economic situation has rather changed, such as this article on how Romanian Haematology has met EU standards. http://www.ehealthnews.eu/content/view/469/26/ Of course there are concerns about medical standards in developing countries, or in Romania's case, medium developed countries, but they haven't applied for a long time, and when a story comes up about thieves potentially selling bones, I don't see why a rant about various ways in which Romania is a barbaric country (clear implication) are reasonable - especially given that they are massively outdated and untrue. 4) You may wish to pay attention this time, as I'm rather tiring of your 'blood libel' topic. I don't know if this is a continuation of a tactic of obfuscation, which I know that you like to use regularly to avoid debate, but when you challenged my objection to your initial post, and I used the term "a kind of twisted blood libel" it was clearly as you were suggesting the Romanians as a people and as a country to indulge in barbaric practices with blood. I therefore, rather flippantly as I later explained several times, used the analogy of blood libel, where a group were accused of barbaric practices with blood. I don't see what you're failing to understand about a perfectly basic, direct analogy, with another recognized situation which shared the main elements of what you were doing. It was a passing comment too...I'm just glad nobody used a fancier analogy or it would have completely bamboozled you. I can only assume that your repeated questions about that one comment are part of your way of drawing attention away from the issues themselves. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Melvyn - I didn't at any time say that UN242 was a "side alley and a distraction" - I said that about your semantic dispute over whether words like "all of" or "the" appear in the text. I clearly summarized 242, and pointed out that it has not been followed by either side, so I don't think you can claim it proves that any peace process can't go ahead - as I've said, that's a clear stalling tactic. A few points:- 1) I disagree strongly with your contention that "successive Israeli governments have been committed to the goal of a Palestinian state". All of the evidence is wholly and fully against that one. 2) Yes, as you've correctly detected, I do place blame on both sides for the Arab/Israeli conflict. Not necessarily equally on any issue, before somebody tries to distort that. History allows no other assessment. 3) Again, the claim that "Israel unilaterally evacuated Gaza and negotiated and returned portions of the West Bank to the PA" is misleading and highly selective. I clarified in my last post that both are in no way considered as 'withdrawals' under international standards, given that both are fully under Israeli control - what there has been is a devolution of some responsibility. 4) Obviously the main issues are that clearly you are wholly against any peace process, and on that we disagree. As I said, there's not been a case I know of where one side can claim that the other side has to move on their own, or where an impossible goal has been set to prevent progress. I also pointed out that there HAS been massive progress in the WB in relation to stopping terrorism. It's certainly going to have to happen at some time for Israeli demographic security, and I don't think your particularly partisan approach on the causes of the conflict, or the way forward will prevail in that. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 WILL AND LELAND:- Ah, my two favorite habitual smearers...at least this time you attack me on a thread I have posted on, which is a pleasant change. I like to think that if I attack somebody's post, it is for a reason related to their post itself. If you read your two last comments, you'll see that neither of you have taken any positions, other than broadly expressing that you strongly disagree. You've also avoided defending yourselves, or addressing my actual points, as I have done with you two. 1) This started when I posted (along with one or two others) that the initial string of posts were just broad racist and xenophobic stereotypes about how appalling German people are (hypocritical from Jews) - neither of you have defended them directly of course. Given that Will disputed that his were, I quoted several sections of his post (above). Can either of you look at them and tell me why you disagree with my perception of them. 2) Will - I am against genocide of civilians, building up resentment against people on the basis of religion or race rather than actions, etc. I feel I have a grasp of history, so as a Jew, and given our history, yes - I do consider you and Leland personally to be 'enemies'. However, as per usual, you're out to suggest that as I have, for example, criticized your plans for genocide of civilians, and don't accept your racist or religiously bigoted generalizations about muslims, Christians, Europeans, etc. that I'm somehow defending terrorists - which is your clear implication, and which you use when you don't have a comeback. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stacey - The three main points you make are very blatantly untrue:- 1) The govt will decide "when or even if you can see the doctor". That's not the case in ANY of the Western countries where there is federal healthcare. 2) Emmanuel "doesn't believe in providing health care to the disabled or to people who are very sick". Blatantly untrue. 3) He draws up a list of procedures to deny healthcare to the ill or to the poor. I don't know if this is politically motivated, or the product of delusion, but either way, they aren't even believable lies. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Phili - Rabbis may not be elected, but your position would suggest that religious leaders should never get involved in any political issue. While I strongly believe in the separation of religion and the state, I think they can have a positive influence, and express the theological position on issues to raise awareness. Clearly the well documented use of torture outside of the legal process, in the vast majority of cases found to have been used on people who had no evidence against them is thoroughly against the teachings of God, and these religious leaders are right to speak out. As for Lee-Ann - you're suggesting that torture from the US, UK, etc. doesn't matter so long as somebody else is using torture, or that these religious leaders are indifferent to brutality from Islamic terrorist groups, the Taleban etc. I find that to be illogical and unfair, as I'm quite sure each of these Rabbis has spoken forcefully against the issues you mention. However, this is a case on their doorstep where they can effect a change. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Melvyn - The semantics of the issue are rather a side-alley and a distraction - I clearly wasn't suggesting that the exact words I used were quoted from the document. The fact is that as I was saying, 242 also specifies requirements that Israel withdraw from territories which 42 years later, it has not done, so I don't think it can be cited as a reason not to progress in the process with the Pals. It has not been adhered to by either side. I find it disturbing that you consider my view 'prejudiced', when in fact I simply disagree with you on the way forward. I thought this had been an unusually mature debate on the issue. Nonetheless, issues such as whether the current situation in Gaza constitutes a withdrawal is debatable, given that the terms of 242 and other international discussion implies independent status after withdrawal, which is clearly in no way the situation in Gaza. Regardless, to address the main issues, I had never questioned, and agree wholeheartedly on the importance of stopping the terrorist groups, and the teaching issues from the Pal's side. However, teaching issues are directly within the control of the PA, whereas terrorist activity is not. It's certainly true that the WB has seen a great deal of progress (unlike Gaza), and although caution is sensible, there are positive signs about Abbas dealing with the terrorist threat, as has been acknowledged by most of the Knesset. What my point has been is that claiming that the Pals have to not only move first, but to do something which is even beyond the capability of a strong state is a stalling position from those who oppose a two-state solution on principle. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Stuart Goldbarg - I appreciate the info. I, like a lot of people had been disturbed by some of the Pierre/Lawrence posts, but am a bit wiser now as to why they are so extreme...I doubt whether I'll respond to them in future. It's funny how you build up a perception of somebody purely on the basis of their posts. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Will - as per usual, your bile is not particularly related to my post...but then I know you have to release it or you would explode in a hideous mess. You've presumably purposefully misinterpreted my position that she used to be perceived as a friend of Israel to mean that she is Jewish, so on the point which you have made up, I agree with you - no she hasn't expressed a belief in the Torah. I posted that she had been perceived as a friend of Israel for a long time (which is extensively reflected in her history of strong polling amongst Jews, etc.), which changed when she became part of the push for progress on a two-state solution. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Melvyn:- UN242 also specifies that Israel had to withdraw from all of the territories gained in the war, and Israel has not followed it's inital obligations from the document either. My point is that insisting all violence must stop before there is any further negotiation is clearly, and sadly, an impossible dream, and a clear delaying tactic. For example, there has been substantial progress in the WB, and to give him his dues, Abbas has done a decent job of suppressing the terrorist groups, but under your approach, if there was a lone militant, then no progress could occur, rather like if the PA used one settler attack as a block to progress. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Wow - let's be direct and honest about this. Clinton was an extremely close friend of Israel, and was perceived as one right up until the point when she was part of the push for movement on the 2-state solution. Now people feel they can bandy about unsubstantiated, politically motivated slurs about her, in a pretty shameful and cheap way. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 LELAND:- What are you talking about - is this a continuation of your policy of harrassment and obfuscation? Your racist rant about how Romania is a country where the dead have their blood drained using the same needles which are then used on newborn babies was wholly racist, and as you well know, I described it as a hateful "twisted type of blood-libel", comparing it to another racially motivated, made-up slur. 2009-11-20T;16:30:00-05:00 Melvyn - I said that no mediation has involved one side moving first. Do you know of one? The claim that all aggr